News:


Main Menu

LCMS kerfuffle

Started by Donald_Kirchner, December 08, 2017, 09:55:49 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

readselerttoo

I'm less engaged with listening to others now-a-days and more inclined to finesse my own voice.  Why?  Because with listening one is susceptible to the danger of being influenced by alien subject matter.  For instance I think much of ELCA Lutheranism has lost its strength because it has taken into itself alien matter which has caused it to drift from its confessional identity, imo.

SomeoneWrites

Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 09:17:13 PM
I'm less engaged with listening to others now-a-days and more inclined to finesse my own voice.  Why?  Because with listening one is susceptible to the danger of being influenced by alien subject matter.  For instance I think much of ELCA Lutheranism has lost its strength because it has taken into itself alien matter which has caused it to drift from its confessional identity, imo.

Very quickly. 
I want to thank you and I will respond to this.  It's NYE, I'm heading out, and I don't want to give this a half-done response.  I wish you a delightful evening, and the best of 2018. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

Team Hesse

Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
I think the silence on these matters from the NALC and LCMC folks is because they take a healthier view in that these matters (ie. evolution, etc.) are best handled by science and not the Church.  When we confess the first article of the creeds that is enough acknowledgment of Who is the author of existence.  They leave it at that.  Our job is to further the Christian confession.

I can assent to this. 
I do think the conversation inevitably intersects, though.

Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 10:30:48 AM
so there's a gap in my knowledge.


Sometimes it's healthier to just admit we cannot know everything and simply trust. Knowing all things is one of those God things that is above my pay grade. When I am thinking I know, God usually sends a freight train fully loaded my way to let me know I don't. I am old enough to have been run over a few times by that train......


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.



If that is the only gap in your knowledge you are deeply blessed.


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.  I do not see where I inferred or implied that was the only gap.  Please read me in context.


Sorry. Our contexts are fundamentally so different I have trouble limiting myself to the category in which you wish to delve.


Back to the question, as an LCMC Pastor I am indifferent to the matters about which you have inquired as long as they do not slop over into christian confession. Any of the views you are asking about can be problematic when they become idolatrous--in other words, impinging upon, or being more important than the confession that "Jesus is Lord". "Who do you say that I am?" is a far more pertinent question to me than how did we get here. Get that one wrong and the rest is just chicken feed, or in St Paul's famous word --skoubala.


Lou

Dave Benke

Quote from: Team Hesse on January 01, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
I think the silence on these matters from the NALC and LCMC folks is because they take a healthier view in that these matters (ie. evolution, etc.) are best handled by science and not the Church.  When we confess the first article of the creeds that is enough acknowledgment of Who is the author of existence.  They leave it at that.  Our job is to further the Christian confession.

I can assent to this. 
I do think the conversation inevitably intersects, though.

Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 10:30:48 AM
so there's a gap in my knowledge.


Sometimes it's healthier to just admit we cannot know everything and simply trust. Knowing all things is one of those God things that is above my pay grade. When I am thinking I know, God usually sends a freight train fully loaded my way to let me know I don't. I am old enough to have been run over a few times by that train......


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.



If that is the only gap in your knowledge you are deeply blessed.


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.  I do not see where I inferred or implied that was the only gap.  Please read me in context.


Sorry. Our contexts are fundamentally so different I have trouble limiting myself to the category in which you wish to delve.


Back to the question, as an LCMC Pastor I am indifferent to the matters about which you have inquired as long as they do not slop over into christian confession. Any of the views you are asking about can be problematic when they become idolatrous--in other words, impinging upon, or being more important than the confession that "Jesus is Lord". "Who do you say that I am?" is a far more pertinent question to me than how did we get here. Get that one wrong and the rest is just chicken feed, or in St Paul's famous word --skoubala.


Lou

Happy New Year, Lou!  I took a minute to check out the Institute of Lutheran Theology, which you reference in your tag line.  Three of the people affiliated are your wife, Debra; the Chair, who is an old friend and collaborator Gene Bunkowske; and the head football coach at South Dakota State, John Stieglemeier.  In my many years of contact and conversation with the Ft. Wayne seminary (LCMS), the Bunkowskes were unfailingly both passionate about the mission of God and Gospel in global context and possessed of a warm and inviting hospitable demeanor.  Great to know that his vision is continuing at the ILT.

Dave Benke
It's OK to Pray

Team Hesse

Quote from: Dave Benke on January 01, 2018, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on January 01, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
I think the silence on these matters from the NALC and LCMC folks is because they take a healthier view in that these matters (ie. evolution, etc.) are best handled by science and not the Church.  When we confess the first article of the creeds that is enough acknowledgment of Who is the author of existence.  They leave it at that.  Our job is to further the Christian confession.

I can assent to this. 
I do think the conversation inevitably intersects, though.

Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 10:30:48 AM
so there's a gap in my knowledge.


Sometimes it's healthier to just admit we cannot know everything and simply trust. Knowing all things is one of those God things that is above my pay grade. When I am thinking I know, God usually sends a freight train fully loaded my way to let me know I don't. I am old enough to have been run over a few times by that train......


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.



If that is the only gap in your knowledge you are deeply blessed.


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.  I do not see where I inferred or implied that was the only gap.  Please read me in context.


Sorry. Our contexts are fundamentally so different I have trouble limiting myself to the category in which you wish to delve.


Back to the question, as an LCMC Pastor I am indifferent to the matters about which you have inquired as long as they do not slop over into christian confession. Any of the views you are asking about can be problematic when they become idolatrous--in other words, impinging upon, or being more important than the confession that "Jesus is Lord". "Who do you say that I am?" is a far more pertinent question to me than how did we get here. Get that one wrong and the rest is just chicken feed, or in St Paul's famous word --skoubala.


Lou

Happy New Year, Lou!  I took a minute to check out the Institute of Lutheran Theology, which you reference in your tag line.  Three of the people affiliated are your wife, Debra; the Chair, who is an old friend and collaborator Gene Bunkowske; and the head football coach at South Dakota State, John Stieglemeier.  In my many years of contact and conversation with the Ft. Wayne seminary (LCMS), the Bunkowskes were unfailingly both passionate about the mission of God and Gospel in global context and possessed of a warm and inviting hospitable demeanor.  Great to know that his vision is continuing at the ILT.

Dave Benke


And also with you, Dr Benke.
Debbie and I have been "all in" with ILT since its inception. I believe I was the 8th person to complete an MDiv through the institution. We were all pleased when Dr Bunkowske lent his name and expertise to our fledgling efforts. We have graduates now serving in LCMC, NALC, and CALC congregations and a number of students from LCMS, ELCA, WELS, and even Anglican backgrounds in addition to an occasional person from India or Africa. We are not the usual brick and mortar seminary experience. Nearly everything is done on-line with a congregation based mentor guided component making possible flexible schedules and less expensive educational opportunities for those who need to earn an income or care for their families while pursuing an in-depth education. All of our instructors are Lutherans.


An example....., I am currently mentoring a mid-30ish married man through the system. In many ways he has become my "vicar" in the LCMS sense. I believe he will make a fine Pastor who will be a great addition to any roster on which he may serve. In his secular education he already has a Masters in Conflict Resolution from Georgetown and his resume includes stints working on peace making efforts in Rwanda when the Tutsi-Hutu conflict came to resolution. A smart guy from excellent LCMS roots who simply cannot break from the needs of paying bills and college loans for a residence Seminary experience.


Lou

Gary Schnitkey

Three observations on the recent LCMS kurfuffle.

First, many (if not the vast majority) in natural science fields are reasonably convinced of the earth being much older than 6,000 years.  Given that LCMS largely supports a young earth view, those individuals have mostly unattractive alternatives relative to this teaching including 1) ignoring LCMS teaching or 2) leaving the LCMS.  In the end, the later may be the best  option given that the LCMS demands agreement on all matters doctrine. I would remind LCMS pastors that this includes most that are in the natural science fields.

Second, the only heresy that Jurchen committed in his article was possibly allowing the  treatment of each of the six days in creation as much longer than a "normal" day.  I presume Jurchen was doing this to account for the evidence of a much older earth than 6,000 or so years.  For this, some in the LCMS want to condemn his article.

Third, there is a reason why the LCMS is viewed as a bunch of Pharisees.  I suppose there are confessional and doctrinal advantages to being a  Pharisee.  It does maintain the strength of confessions.  I note, though, that Jesus had strong condemnations for Pharisees.

My suggestion would be for leadership of the LCMS to take a strong stand against organizations like "The Brothers of John the Steadfast", the organization hosting the resolutions.  If it does not stand against these organizations, the LCMS will always be a pharisaical body.

RDPreus

Quote from: Gary Schnitkey on January 01, 2018, 02:53:20 PM
Three observations on the recent LCMS kurfuffle.

First, many (if not the vast majority) in natural science fields are reasonably convinced of the earth being much older than 6,000 years.  Given that LCMS largely supports a young earth view, those individuals have mostly unattractive alternatives relative to this teaching including 1) ignoring LCMS teaching or 2) leaving the LCMS.  In the end, the later may be the best  option given that the LCMS demands agreement on all matters doctrine. I would remind LCMS pastors that this includes most that are in the natural science fields.

Second, the only heresy that Jurchen committed in his article was possibly allowing the  treatment of each of the six days in creation as much longer than a “normal” day.  I presume Jurchen was doing this to account for the evidence of a much older earth than 6,000 or so years.  For this, some in the LCMS want to condemn his article.

Third, there is a reason why the LCMS is viewed as a bunch of Pharisees.  I suppose there are confessional and doctrinal advantages to being a  Pharisee.  It does maintain the strength of confessions.  I note, though, that Jesus had strong condemnations for Pharisees.

My suggestion would be for leadership of the LCMS to take a strong stand against organizations like “The Brothers of John the Steadfast”, the organization hosting the resolutions.  If it does not stand against these organizations, the LCMS will always be a pharisaical body.


To liken the ministerium of the Wyoming District of the LCMS to Pharisees displays an ignorance of the theology of both.  The pastors in Wyoming reject all forms of pharisaism.  Those who appeal to extra-biblical authorities ("science") to interpret a word ("day") contrary to its natural sense as it appears in the Bible itself are like the Pharisees who also appealed to extra-biblical authorities ("tradition of the elders") in support of their interpretations of the Bible.  In both cases, men seek to evade the clear sense of the biblical text by appealing to a norm outside of the Bible itself.

D. Engebretson

#262
Quote from: Gary Schnitkey on January 01, 2018, 02:53:20 PM
Three observations on the recent LCMS kurfuffle.

First, many (if not the vast majority) in natural science fields are reasonably convinced of the earth being much older than 6,000 years.  Given that LCMS largely supports a young earth view, those individuals have mostly unattractive alternatives relative to this teaching including 1) ignoring LCMS teaching or 2) leaving the LCMS.  In the end, the later may be the best  option given that the LCMS demands agreement on all matters doctrine. I would remind LCMS pastors that this includes most that are in the natural science fields.

Second, the only heresy that Jurchen committed in his article was possibly allowing the  treatment of each of the six days in creation as much longer than a "normal" day.  I presume Jurchen was doing this to account for the evidence of a much older earth than 6,000 or so years.  For this, some in the LCMS want to condemn his article.

Third, there is a reason why the LCMS is viewed as a bunch of Pharisees.  I suppose there are confessional and doctrinal advantages to being a  Pharisee.  It does maintain the strength of confessions.  I note, though, that Jesus had strong condemnations for Pharisees.

My suggestion would be for leadership of the LCMS to take a strong stand against organizations like "The Brothers of John the Steadfast", the organization hosting the resolutions.  If it does not stand against these organizations, the LCMS will always be a pharisaical body.

Are you implying that in the LCMS there be no room for dissent?  That sounds alot like the kind of legalistic control many are already accusing conservatives.  Also, if the LCMS "takes a stand" against organizations such as The Brothers of John the Steadfast, does this mean, then, that they declare by implication that the LCMS will only accept an "old earth" interpretation in keeping with where many see scientific thought today?

And as to the accusation of some in the LCMS being "a bunch of Pharisees," how do you view the Pharisees?  Is your accusation, as Pr. Preus noted, against introducing extra-biblical support material?  Or is it an accusation of spiritual arrogance?  Or something else?  It would be nice to know since I have been a supporter of the traditional interpretation of Genesis 1, and if by doing so I am therefore a "Pharisee," I guess I'll just have to own the title.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Dan Fienen

Unfortunately, Pharisee, like Nazi or fascist, has become more a simple invective rather than a descriptive term that informs us as to what a person believes and attitudes that they hold.  Pharisees held specific beliefs concerning Scripture, obedience to God and theology.  In addition they had some less savory religious habits.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: RDPreus on January 01, 2018, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: Gary Schnitkey on January 01, 2018, 02:53:20 PM
Three observations on the recent LCMS kurfuffle.

First, many (if not the vast majority) in natural science fields are reasonably convinced of the earth being much older than 6,000 years.  Given that LCMS largely supports a young earth view, those individuals have mostly unattractive alternatives relative to this teaching including 1) ignoring LCMS teaching or 2) leaving the LCMS.  In the end, the later may be the best  option given that the LCMS demands agreement on all matters doctrine. I would remind LCMS pastors that this includes most that are in the natural science fields.

Second, the only heresy that Jurchen committed in his article was possibly allowing the  treatment of each of the six days in creation as much longer than a "normal" day.  I presume Jurchen was doing this to account for the evidence of a much older earth than 6,000 or so years.  For this, some in the LCMS want to condemn his article.

Third, there is a reason why the LCMS is viewed as a bunch of Pharisees.  I suppose there are confessional and doctrinal advantages to being a  Pharisee.  It does maintain the strength of confessions.  I note, though, that Jesus had strong condemnations for Pharisees.

My suggestion would be for leadership of the LCMS to take a strong stand against organizations like "The Brothers of John the Steadfast", the organization hosting the resolutions.  If it does not stand against these organizations, the LCMS will always be a pharisaical body.


To liken the ministerium of the Wyoming District of the LCMS to Pharisees displays an ignorance of the theology of both.  The pastors in Wyoming reject all forms of pharisaism.  Those who appeal to extra-biblical authorities ("science") to interpret a word ("day") contrary to its natural sense as it appears in the Bible itself are like the Pharisees who also appealed to extra-biblical authorities ("tradition of the elders") in support of their interpretations of the Bible.  In both cases, men seek to evade the clear sense of the biblical text by appealing to a norm outside of the Bible itself.


First of all, the Bible does not use the word "day". That word comes from English translators. The Hebrew Bible uses, יוֹם. (The Greek LXX uses ἡμέρα.)
Secondly, Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament has seven major definition divisions for יוֹם and numerous subdivisions under those seven. A 24-hour period is only one of many definitions of the word. (Of course, you can claim that Lexicons are extra-biblical authorities; but I would counter that the translators of any English version you use are extra-biblical authorities. You can't escape using the wisdom of people when we study scriptures.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Dan Fienen on January 01, 2018, 05:14:56 PM
Unfortunately, Pharisee, like Nazi or fascist, has become more a simple invective rather than a descriptive term that informs us as to what a person believes and attitudes that they hold.  Pharisees held specific beliefs concerning Scripture, obedience to God and theology.  In addition they had some less savory religious habits.


We also have a problem of whether or not the description of a Pharisee comes from a friend of Pharisees or an enemy of Pharisees. How they are described varies greatly in ancient literature.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

RDPreus

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 01, 2018, 05:56:00 PM
Quote from: RDPreus on January 01, 2018, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: Gary Schnitkey on January 01, 2018, 02:53:20 PM
Three observations on the recent LCMS kurfuffle.

First, many (if not the vast majority) in natural science fields are reasonably convinced of the earth being much older than 6,000 years.  Given that LCMS largely supports a young earth view, those individuals have mostly unattractive alternatives relative to this teaching including 1) ignoring LCMS teaching or 2) leaving the LCMS.  In the end, the later may be the best  option given that the LCMS demands agreement on all matters doctrine. I would remind LCMS pastors that this includes most that are in the natural science fields.

Second, the only heresy that Jurchen committed in his article was possibly allowing the  treatment of each of the six days in creation as much longer than a "normal" day.  I presume Jurchen was doing this to account for the evidence of a much older earth than 6,000 or so years.  For this, some in the LCMS want to condemn his article.

Third, there is a reason why the LCMS is viewed as a bunch of Pharisees.  I suppose there are confessional and doctrinal advantages to being a  Pharisee.  It does maintain the strength of confessions.  I note, though, that Jesus had strong condemnations for Pharisees.

My suggestion would be for leadership of the LCMS to take a strong stand against organizations like "The Brothers of John the Steadfast", the organization hosting the resolutions.  If it does not stand against these organizations, the LCMS will always be a pharisaical body.


To liken the ministerium of the Wyoming District of the LCMS to Pharisees displays an ignorance of the theology of both.  The pastors in Wyoming reject all forms of pharisaism.  Those who appeal to extra-biblical authorities ("science") to interpret a word ("day") contrary to its natural sense as it appears in the Bible itself are like the Pharisees who also appealed to extra-biblical authorities ("tradition of the elders") in support of their interpretations of the Bible.  In both cases, men seek to evade the clear sense of the biblical text by appealing to a norm outside of the Bible itself.


First of all, the Bible does not use the word "day". That word comes from English translators. The Hebrew Bible uses, יוֹם. (The Greek LXX uses ἡμέρα.)
Secondly, Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon of the Old Testament has seven major definition divisions for יוֹם and numerous subdivisions under those seven. A 24-hour period is only one of many definitions of the word. (Of course, you can claim that Lexicons are extra-biblical authorities; but I would counter that the translators of any English version you use are extra-biblical authorities. You can't escape using the wisdom of people when we study scriptures.

The Bible does use the word day.  We are writing in the English language; not in the Hebrew language.  In English the word is day.  Moses, who wrote Genesis 1, also wrote Exodus 20.  We learn from Exodus 20 that the word for day in Genesis 1 is used to refer to an ordinary day, not to an indefinite period of time.

SomeoneWrites

(from page 17)
Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 08:40:23 PM
That is, each speaks from it's own authorized arena and since they are in the same room (read "the public") there is always the possibility that one will hear the other, and the reverse.  Or, is each only speaking at the other or do they not recognize their shared space?

Thank you for your patience.  If I'm understanding you correctly, I would definitely say there's nuances to each that give them their own voices.  There seems to be a line of distinction between the two and I think, for the most part, that's well and good.  I think the voices speaking to the other, in some context is inevitable.  I think there is a shared space, depending on the questions. 

I think the Noadic Flood is a good example.  It's removed the vagueness of Eden.  Floods leave evidence.  As far as a global flood, there is no record in geology of a global flood 6000 years ago.  Part of the flood miracle is that it left no trace. 

Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 09:17:13 PM
I'm less engaged with listening to others now-a-days and more inclined to finesse my own voice.  Why?  Because with listening one is susceptible to the danger of being influenced by alien subject matter.  For instance I think much of ELCA Lutheranism has lost its strength because it has taken into itself alien matter which has caused it to drift from its confessional identity, imo.

Maybe.  I don't know if I'd approach it that way.  Lutheranism is, in some sense, alien to the Catholic and Orthodox teachings.  Now, it's not necessarily that it would exclude someone from salvation.  From my understanding, Lutherans are not part of "The Church" according to the Orthodox perspective.  That sort of thing.  I think there are more benefits than problems with listening. YMMV

Quote from: Team Hesse on January 01, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
I think the silence on these matters from the NALC and LCMC folks is because they take a healthier view in that these matters (ie. evolution, etc.) are best handled by science and not the Church.  When we confess the first article of the creeds that is enough acknowledgment of Who is the author of existence.  They leave it at that.  Our job is to further the Christian confession.

I can assent to this. 
I do think the conversation inevitably intersects, though.

Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 10:30:48 AM
so there's a gap in my knowledge.


Sometimes it's healthier to just admit we cannot know everything and simply trust. Knowing all things is one of those God things that is above my pay grade. When I am thinking I know, God usually sends a freight train fully loaded my way to let me know I don't. I am old enough to have been run over a few times by that train......


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.



If that is the only gap in your knowledge you are deeply blessed.


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.  I do not see where I inferred or implied that was the only gap.  Please read me in context.


Sorry. Our contexts are fundamentally so different I have trouble limiting myself to the category in which you wish to delve.


Back to the question, as an LCMC Pastor I am indifferent to the matters about which you have inquired as long as they do not slop over into christian confession. Any of the views you are asking about can be problematic when they become idolatrous--in other words, impinging upon, or being more important than the confession that "Jesus is Lord". "Who do you say that I am?" is a far more pertinent question to me than how did we get here. Get that one wrong and the rest is just chicken feed, or in St Paul's famous word --skoubala.


Lou

Thank you.  All good.
I have to say though, when I said "context" I was talking about the context of the discussion.  I'll try and be clearer in what I write. 
Thank you for addressing the LCMC question I was asking.  For the most part, I agree.  There are many Catholics, Orthodox, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, and Lutherans who can accept Evolution and still proclaim Jesus is Lord.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  I've said upstream that there seems to be a problem with how that is combined with the confessions, but I'm seeing that there's groups/people that use the confessions to inform their doctrine -not necessarily BE their doctrine. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

D. Engebretson

Quote from: Team Hesse on January 01, 2018, 10:53:03 AM
Quote from: Dave Benke on January 01, 2018, 10:18:17 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on January 01, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: George Rahn on December 31, 2017, 01:28:48 PM
I think the silence on these matters from the NALC and LCMC folks is because they take a healthier view in that these matters (ie. evolution, etc.) are best handled by science and not the Church.  When we confess the first article of the creeds that is enough acknowledgment of Who is the author of existence.  They leave it at that.  Our job is to further the Christian confession.

I can assent to this. 
I do think the conversation inevitably intersects, though.

Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 11:51:59 AM
Quote from: Team Hesse on December 31, 2017, 10:41:15 AM
Quote from: SomeoneWrites on December 31, 2017, 10:30:48 AM
so there's a gap in my knowledge.


Sometimes it's healthier to just admit we cannot know everything and simply trust. Knowing all things is one of those God things that is above my pay grade. When I am thinking I know, God usually sends a freight train fully loaded my way to let me know I don't. I am old enough to have been run over a few times by that train......


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.



If that is the only gap in your knowledge you are deeply blessed.


Lou

The gap in my knowledge was in reference to what the NALC and LCMC teaches.  I do not see where I inferred or implied that was the only gap.  Please read me in context.


Sorry. Our contexts are fundamentally so different I have trouble limiting myself to the category in which you wish to delve.


Back to the question, as an LCMC Pastor I am indifferent to the matters about which you have inquired as long as they do not slop over into christian confession. Any of the views you are asking about can be problematic when they become idolatrous--in other words, impinging upon, or being more important than the confession that "Jesus is Lord". "Who do you say that I am?" is a far more pertinent question to me than how did we get here. Get that one wrong and the rest is just chicken feed, or in St Paul's famous word --skoubala.


Lou

Happy New Year, Lou!  I took a minute to check out the Institute of Lutheran Theology, which you reference in your tag line.  Three of the people affiliated are your wife, Debra; the Chair, who is an old friend and collaborator Gene Bunkowske; and the head football coach at South Dakota State, John Stieglemeier.  In my many years of contact and conversation with the Ft. Wayne seminary (LCMS), the Bunkowskes were unfailingly both passionate about the mission of God and Gospel in global context and possessed of a warm and inviting hospitable demeanor.  Great to know that his vision is continuing at the ILT.

Dave Benke


And also with you, Dr Benke.
Debbie and I have been "all in" with ILT since its inception. I believe I was the 8th person to complete an MDiv through the institution. We were all pleased when Dr Bunkowske lent his name and expertise to our fledgling efforts. We have graduates now serving in LCMC, NALC, and CALC congregations and a number of students from LCMS, ELCA, WELS, and even Anglican backgrounds in addition to an occasional person from India or Africa. We are not the usual brick and mortar seminary experience. Nearly everything is done on-line with a congregation based mentor guided component making possible flexible schedules and less expensive educational opportunities for those who need to earn an income or care for their families while pursuing an in-depth education. All of our instructors are Lutherans.


An example....., I am currently mentoring a mid-30ish married man through the system. In many ways he has become my "vicar" in the LCMS sense. I believe he will make a fine Pastor who will be a great addition to any roster on which he may serve. In his secular education he already has a Masters in Conflict Resolution from Georgetown and his resume includes stints working on peace making efforts in Rwanda when the Tutsi-Hutu conflict came to resolution. A smart guy from excellent LCMS roots who simply cannot break from the needs of paying bills and college loans for a residence Seminary experience.


Lou

A good friend of mine - a  layman from a neighboring circuit - has been working on his STM through ILT and also serves occasionally as an instructor.  His name is Jim McGarigle, and I know that after he finishes this degree he wants to pursue a doctorate and eventually teach more extensively for ILT.  Recently they introduced a D.Min program, so their post-grad opportunities are pretty good for pastors looking for online alternatives beyond their M.Div degree. 
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Jim Butler

Quote from: Brian Stoffregen on January 01, 2018, 05:56:00 PM

First of all, the Bible does not use the word "day". That word comes from English translators. The Hebrew Bible uses, יוֹם. (The Greek LXX uses ἡμέρα.)

If the word "day" "comes from English translators" then how would you translate the word?
"Pastor Butler... [is] deaf to the cries of people like me, dismissing our concerns as Satanic scenarios, denouncing our faith and our very existence."--Charles Austin

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk