Author Topic: LCMS kerfuffle  (Read 48405 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2017, 04:31:56 PM »
Neither the Bible nor the confessions are science texts. And yes indeed, we do know more about the world and the universe than was known in those days.
Evolution is a fact. “Young earth” anything is an insult to the intelligence that God gave us.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Rev Mathew Andersen

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2017, 05:16:46 PM »
Neither the Bible nor the confessions are science texts. And yes indeed, we do know more about the world and the universe than was known in those days.
Evolution is a fact. “Young earth” anything is an insult to the intelligence that God gave us.
Please go away instead of insulting people

SomeoneWrites

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2017, 05:19:58 PM »

I'm not looking for any particular item or list at all.  I was not trying to set you up for a gotcha - other serpents are more crafty at that than I.  ;)  The main reason was to just get you to identify your presuppositions ... we all have them on most subjects.  For example, perhaps yours might be "God does not create things to appear older than they are", "cognitive knowledge trumps revealed knowledge", "I do not believe God cursed the creation", or any number of similiar/unsimilar ideas.  The exercise of identifying consciously my presuppositions has helped me a lot.  I just thought it might be useful to you too.   Best wishes in your journey to find the truth.  Recently, I was intrigued by this article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/07/alan-dershowitzs-new-reality-tweeted-by-trump-shunned-by-liberal-friends/?tid=hybrid_collaborative_1_na
and particularly this quote which made me realize how strong emotions on a subject can blind us:

"Dershowitz said he “got an email today from a very prominent friend — I’m not going to disclose his name because it was a private email — admitting that I’m right and saying ‘My hatred toward Trump blinds me to your truths.’ That was his email. ‘My hatred for Trump blinds me to your truths. Please stop.’

“And then he said to me, ‘Don’t ever send me another tweet that includes an article that you wrote that helps that son of a b‑‑‑‑.’

And “this is a close friend,” Dershowitz said. “The email starts, ‘I love you. It starts ‘I love you but … .”


I definitely believe emotions/feelings can blind people to the truth.  We are in agreement there.
I also appreciate your wellwishes, and wish you the same. 

Neither the Bible nor the confessions are science texts. And yes indeed, we do know more about the world and the universe than was known in those days.
Evolution is a fact. “Young earth” anything is an insult to the intelligence that God gave us.


Yes.  Evolution is a fact.

However, this would mean the confessions contain an error in that regard, at least in the understanding as they were written/intended.  It's okay to correct that error.  I'm just not in favor of - forgive my wording - being dishonest with the text.  We have more works written to unpack the thoughts/beliefs/intents of the confessions then we do the Pentateuch. 
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mariemeyer

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2017, 05:29:51 PM »
The current LCMS kerfuffle is a sad example of why the ten year Koinonia Project has yielded little if any results.  The attempt to suggest otherwise reflects seeing a realty through rose colored glasses.  Where were the church leaders who knew two District were considering these resolutions?  Did anyone propose following a process that has been portrayed as a new day in how LCMS brothers and sister will deal with one another?

If President Harrison responds to recent events by stating that all parties involved must come together for mutual confession and consolation, I will repent of my observation of the Koinonia Process.

Marie Meyer
 

aletheist

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2017, 05:31:25 PM »
Evolution is a fact.
That depends on exactly what one means by "evolution."  Within the context of this thread, evolution is a theory that attempts to explain certain facts based on specific presuppositions.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Dave Benke

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2017, 05:33:20 PM »
I would favor the submission of a new Brief Statement at the centenniel observance of the original, so in 2032, 15 years from now.   That should be just about the time the Koinonia Process is completed, making a good fit.  As the US Postal Service puts it, "No mail will be delivered before its time."    8)

Dave Benke

SomeoneWrites

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2017, 05:36:02 PM »
Evolution is a fact.
That depends on exactly what one means by "evolution."  Within the context of this thread, evolution is a theory that attempts to explain certain facts based on specific presuppositions.

Evolution is a theory in the same way plate techtonics is a theory.  It's the same as gravitational theory. 
It's not a matter of mere presuppositions.  There is a large well established body of supporting evidence.  It may be that God gave every illusion that such was the case.  Outside of creation narratives, the rest of the observations point to evolution. 
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2017, 05:38:49 PM »
The current LCMS kerfuffle is a sad example of why the ten year Koinonia Project has yielded little if any results.  The attempt to suggest otherwise reflects seeing a realty through rose colored glasses.  Where were the church leaders who knew two District were considering these resolutions?  Did anyone propose following a process that has been portrayed as a new day in how LCMS brothers and sister will deal with one another?

If President Harrison responds to recent events by stating that all parties involved must come together for mutual confession and consolation, I will repent of my observation of the Koinonia Process.

Marie Meyer
 

I agree, Mrs. Meyer. If those districts had made an inquiry, they probably would have received a response similar to what Dr. Arand has posted on ConcordiaTheology, and the conversation could have continued from there.

It is sad.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2017, 05:49:48 PM »
 But you guys just love accusing each other of heresy. It’s in your DNA. The accusers are not interested in resolving issues. That might mean discussion and compromise. They are just interested in having their side win.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2017, 05:52:37 PM »
You know, Charles, when I posted this topic, I considered adding, "Have fun, Charles."

What took you so long?
Don Kirchner

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SomeoneWrites

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2017, 05:55:55 PM »
But you guys just love accusing each other of heresy. It’s in your DNA. The accusers are not interested in resolving issues. That might mean discussion and compromise. They are just interested in having their side win.

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aletheist

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2017, 05:58:04 PM »
Evolution is a fact.
That depends on exactly what one means by "evolution."  Within the context of this thread, evolution is a theory that attempts to explain certain facts based on specific presuppositions.
Evolution is a theory in the same way plate techtonics is a theory.  It's the same as gravitational theory.
Again, it depends on exactly what one means by "evolution."  We directly observe plate tectonics and gravitation operating today.  Have we ever observed life evolving from non-life?  Or complex life forms evolving from simple life forms?  Or even a new species evolving from an established one?
It's not a matter of mere presuppositions.  There is a large well established body of supporting evidence.
It is always a matter of presuppositions, as we have discussed here before.  Different people have different interpretations of the same evidence, because they have different presuppositions.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

SomeoneWrites

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2017, 06:15:08 PM »
Again, it depends on exactly what one means by "evolution."
The theory of evolution. 

We directly observe plate tectonics
We can do that now with satellites.  It too has a large body of supporting evidence.  It is still a theory.

and gravitation operating today. 
We see that things go to the earth when you drop them.  There's the rest of the theory.

Relativity is still a theory.  A theory is the highest position something can get in science. 


Have we ever observed life evolving from non-life? 
This is abiogenesis.  We are then faced with a god of the gaps situation, or that there's a natural cause for it, like everything else we've discovered like photosynthesis, etc.

Or complex life forms evolving from simple life forms?
We have a ridiculously large amount of evidence that points to evolution.  Where would you like to begin?

  Or even a new species evolving from an established one?

Speciation is frequently documented.  A great thing to look at is ring species.  I don't know what sources you would consider or if your presuppositions would allow for them to be submitted as evidence. 


It is always a matter of presuppositions, as we have discussed here before.  Different people have different interpretations of the same evidence, because they have different presuppositions.

Presuppositions, oddly enough, appears to be your end goal as much as your starting point.  Presuppositions and assumptions may be supported or rejected by evidence. 
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John_Hannah

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2017, 07:48:27 PM »
Neither the Bible nor the confessions are science texts. And yes indeed, we do know more about the world and the universe than was known in those days.
Evolution is a fact. “Young earth” anything is an insult to the intelligence that God gave us.
Please go away instead of insulting people

I don't see any insult from Charles at all.  You . . .?

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

RogerMartim

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Re: LCMS kerfuffle
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2017, 08:48:48 PM »
Outside of the helio- and geo-centric influences, what does 24/6 or 24/7 mean? Absolutely nothing. Aren't we boxing God in to our notion of time?