Author Topic: Is Jesus omniscient?  (Read 685 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Is Jesus omniscient?
« on: November 11, 2017, 05:31:10 PM »
In studying again the text as I was preparing my sermon, I wondered, "Is Jesus omniscient?"


The text, Matthew 25:1-13 has the "groom" telling the five foolish bridesmaids, "I tell you the truth, I don't know you."


This is similar to an earlier saying, Matthew 7:21-23 (boldface added):

21“Not everybody who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. 22On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’ 23Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’"

Beyond these sayings where the "groom" and the "Lord," likely represent Christ, we also have Jesus saying, "Nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows" (Matthew 24:36).

It would seem that what the Father knows the Son does not know.

Is it possible for Jesus not to know us?

Discuss.



 
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2017, 05:47:10 PM »
Still struggling with the two natures of Christ, Brian?

If you confessed it, you might find FC, SD VIII helpful. Maybe around paragraph 74.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 07:02:51 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 12:13:54 AM »
Still struggling with the two natures of Christ, Brian?

If you confessed it, you might find FC, SD VIII helpful. Maybe around paragraph 74.


Nope, asking questions about biblical texts. They say that Jesus didn't know some things which means he is not omniscient. You can offer a different interpretation of the biblical texts. I was not asking about extra-biblical christological statements. In addition, the words "omniscient" and "omniscience" do not occur in the Formula.


How do you answer the question: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 01:02:51 AM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

gan ainm

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 06:18:45 AM »
Still struggling with the two natures of Christ, Brian?

If you confessed it, you might find FC, SD VIII helpful. Maybe around paragraph 74.


Nope, asking questions about biblical texts. They say that Jesus didn't know some things which means he is not omniscient. You can offer a different interpretation of the biblical texts. I was not asking about extra-biblical christological statements. In addition, the words "omniscient" and "omniscience" do not occur in the Formula.


How do you answer the question: Is Jesus omniscient?

God is a God of knowledge (1 Sm 2:3). His is an ever-present knowledge, one that directly knows things that exist and come to pass; not progressive knowledge, but total and perfect (Ps 139:1–4; Jn 21:17). He and His knowledge had no beginning (Ps 90:2; Eph 1:4).  Consider this and the doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of the Two Natures of Christ and you have your answer.



jebutler

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 07:15:16 AM »
In studying again the text as I was preparing my sermon, I wondered, "Is Jesus omniscient?"


The text, Matthew 25:1-13 has the "groom" telling the five foolish bridesmaids, "I tell you the truth, I don't know you."


This is similar to an earlier saying, Matthew 7:21-23 (boldface added):

21“Not everybody who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. 22On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’ 23Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’"

Beyond these sayings where the "groom" and the "Lord," likely represent Christ, we also have Jesus saying, "Nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows" (Matthew 24:36).

It would seem that what the Father knows the Son does not know.

Is it possible for Jesus not to know us?

Discuss.

1. You know Matthew 25 is a parable, right? Don't take it quite so literally.

2. In Matthew 7, to "know" means to have a relationship. They think they have a relationship with Him. They have called him Lord. But He has no relationship with them and never has.

3. In Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking in terms of His State of Humiliation, in which He laid aside His rights as God. So, at that time, He did not know the time of the end; He certainly does now.

I you would find reading through Chemnitz _The Two Natures of Christ_ quite beneficial. You certainly seem to have a great deal of difficulty with it.
These are things that we can discuss among learned and reasonable people, or even among ourselves. (Luther, SA III, paraphrased).

Dan Fienen

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 09:00:50 AM »

In studying again the text as I was preparing my sermon, I wondered, "Is Jesus omniscient?"


The text, Matthew 25:1-13 has the "groom" telling the five foolish bridesmaids, "I tell you the truth, I don't know you."


This is similar to an earlier saying, Matthew 7:21-23 (boldface added):

21“Not everybody who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. 22On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’ 23Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’"

Beyond these sayings where the "groom" and the "Lord," likely represent Christ, we also have Jesus saying, "Nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows" (Matthew 24:36).

It would seem that what the Father knows the Son does not know.

Is it possible for Jesus not to know us?

Discuss.

1. You know Matthew 25 is a parable, right? Don't take it quite so literally.

2. In Matthew 7, to "know" means to have a relationship. They think they have a relationship with Him. They have called him Lord. But He has no relationship with them and never has.

3. In Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking in terms of His State of Humiliation, in which He laid aside His rights as God. So, at that time, He did not know the time of the end; He certainly does now.

I you would find reading through Chemnitz _The Two Natures of Christ_ quite beneficial. You certainly seem to have a great deal of difficulty with it.
Thank you, jebutler.  I was preparing to write a response and you have covered the points that I wanted to make and done it better than I would have.  You go guy!
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 01:18:41 PM »
In studying again the text as I was preparing my sermon, I wondered, "Is Jesus omniscient?"


The text, Matthew 25:1-13 has the "groom" telling the five foolish bridesmaids, "I tell you the truth, I don't know you."


This is similar to an earlier saying, Matthew 7:21-23 (boldface added):

21“Not everybody who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. 22On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’ 23Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’"

Beyond these sayings where the "groom" and the "Lord," likely represent Christ, we also have Jesus saying, "Nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows" (Matthew 24:36).

It would seem that what the Father knows the Son does not know.

Is it possible for Jesus not to know us?

Discuss.

1. You know Matthew 25 is a parable, right? Don't take it quite so literally.

2. In Matthew 7, to "know" means to have a relationship. They think they have a relationship with Him. They have called him Lord. But He has no relationship with them and never has.

3. In Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking in terms of His State of Humiliation, in which He laid aside His rights as God. So, at that time, He did not know the time of the end; He certainly does now.

I you would find reading through Chemnitz _The Two Natures of Christ_ quite beneficial. You certainly seem to have a great deal of difficulty with it.

Yeah.  Solid answer regardless of denomination. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
Atheist

readselerttoo

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 04:17:37 PM »
In the texts cited, to know isn't about head knowledge as much as it is about recognizing someone in terms of a relationship with/or not with them.  Omniscience isn't the issue here as much as knowing another person is and taken in the individual circumstance of recognition of another.  Similar is the Hebrew term 'Jadah" for knowing a person, I believe.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 04:32:37 PM by George Rahn »

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 05:53:04 PM »
In the texts cited, to know isn't about head knowledge as much as it is about recognizing someone in terms of a relationship with/or not with them.  Omniscience isn't the issue here as much as knowing another person is and taken in the individual circumstance of recognition of another.  Similar is the Hebrew term 'Jadah" for knowing a person, I believe.


Yes. That was part of my sermon. "To know" in this context, means "to have a (close) relationship with." I am "friends" with nearly 1200 people on Facebook. Many of them I do not know. I don't have a relationship with them, but they know me because of my exegetical work. In a few cases, through private notes, and even face-to-face visits, I've gotten "to know" some of those "friends" and come to have a relationship with them.


Part of this is to counter an often asked question by "evangelists": "Do you know the Lord?" The question that is raised in the texts I mentioned is: "Does the Lord know you?"
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Matt Hummel

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 05:55:50 PM »
Once more we are left with several options:

Brian is a total ignoramus. Not likely. Possible... but not likely.

Brian is batcrap crazy. Well, Charles A. gets shirty with long distance diagnoses, so we'll just leave that one there. For the moment.

Brian is better suited for life under a bridge or up in the mountains at the head of a fjord than for the American Southwest.

I remember a story told by a professor new to the University. In his former department, a professor was given a huge grant with which he was able to buy a large SUV and kit it out with a mobile geochemistry lab.  Bonehead grad student totals the vehicle. And the lab.

Fastforward- student gets his doctorate. Actually has the gall to ask the professor whose vehicle/lab he destroyed for a letter of recommendation. Professor writes to the School in question with a tersely word epistle: "I never heard of the Son of a Bitch."

I suspect that this is the lack of knowledge about which Jesus is speaking parabolically. I suspect that Brian actually knows that. And I am left to ponder why he is compelled to do as he does.
Matt Hummel


“The chief purpose of life, for any of us, is to increase according to our capacity our knowledge of God by all means we have, and to be moved by it to praise and thanks.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Is Jesus omniscient?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 01:41:44 AM »
I suspect that this is the lack of knowledge about which Jesus is speaking parabolically. I suspect that Brian actually knows that. And I am left to ponder why he is compelled to do as he does.


You ponder why I asked a question? Why?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]