Poll

How are you observing November 26th in your congregation?

Christ the King
16 (72.7%)
Last Sunday of the Church Year
6 (27.3%)
Advent I
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?  (Read 2024 times)

Harvey_Mozolak

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4686
    • View Profile
    • line and letter lettuce
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 02:44:10 PM »
talk about several services in one 24 hour period....  I recall once hearing the RC canon law or some such source spoke of the fact that one should not or couldn't or something like that... commune more than once a day (maybe it was 24 hours).... anyone know of that teaching?  Of course, anyone celebrating the Eucharist among them (and among us) might well do that when there are more Masses in one day...  I know I always commune at each celebration no matter how many there might be in a day... two in a row on Sunday morning, Saturday evening and Sunday morning, Sunday morning and some afternoon or even Communion on a Sunday ...  although my custom was if I was celebrating with several Shutins during a single day or afternoon, I only usually communed once with the first... not sure why except there were times when I could commune 3-5 in a single day.  Thoughts, pastoral advice which hopefully we will not dissolve into arguments... 
Harvey S. Mozolak
my poetry blog is listed below:

http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

Harvey_Mozolak

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4686
    • View Profile
    • line and letter lettuce
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 02:45:07 PM »
Jon, wonderful example. 
Harvey S. Mozolak
my poetry blog is listed below:

http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

James_Gale

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4082
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »
talk about several services in one 24 hour period....  I recall once hearing the RC canon law or some such source spoke of the fact that one should not or couldn't or something like that... commune more than once a day (maybe it was 24 hours).... anyone know of that teaching?  Of course, anyone celebrating the Eucharist among them (and among us) might well do that when there are more Masses in one day...  I know I always commune at each celebration no matter how many there might be in a day... two in a row on Sunday morning, Saturday evening and Sunday morning, Sunday morning and some afternoon or even Communion on a Sunday ...  although my custom was if I was celebrating with several Shutins during a single day or afternoon, I only usually communed once with the first... not sure why except there were times when I could commune 3-5 in a single day.  Thoughts, pastoral advice which hopefully we will not dissolve into arguments...


In general, RC canon law provides that a priest may not celebrate the eucharist more that once a day.  However, Canon 905 creates exceptions:

ß2. If there is a  shortage of priests, the local ordinary can allow priests to celebrate twice a day for a just cause, or if pastoral necessity requires it, even three times on Sundays and holydays of obligation.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 02:52:44 PM by James_Gale »

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 11526
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 03:05:22 PM »
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Jeremy Loesch

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2236
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 03:15:19 PM »
Knowing how much everyone on this Forum loves polls, a new poll.  Several congregations have announced that they are moving the Advent I to November 26 allowing Advent to come to a close on December 17th.  (The start of the O Antiphons  :-\) )   There will be no morning service on December 24th with Christmas Eve services that night. 

A friend asked if I'd ever seen this done.  I haven't.  Have you?  What are you doing?

November 26 is Christ the King/Last Sunday of the Church Year

December 24 is the 4th Sunday in Advent.

That evening is Christmas Eve.

I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent.

Amen Jim!  Where do they get the authority to do such a thing?  Crazy.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2017, 03:27:19 PM »
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."
1.  For whatever historical reason, our congregation also does not have a Christmas Day service (unless that day is a Sunday).  (Neither did the home church of my youth.)  I don't know whether our pastors have any strong feelings about that, but I'm sure the laity concerns you mention are the primary reason--and I share them.  We have 4 services on the Eve evening...and so will have 7 in total this 24th.  Even if we had one regularly on the 25th, all our communal energy would still be expended the night before.  Similar reason we don't have an Easter Vigil service.

2.  Do you really mean to start the flame war here about whether Die Hard is a Christmas movie?  ;) (My take:  agree!)

Sterling Spatz
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 03:59:01 PM by MaddogLutheran »
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Eileen Smith

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2017, 03:38:08 PM »
Knowing how much everyone on this Forum loves polls, a new poll.  Several congregations have announced that they are moving the Advent I to November 26 allowing Advent to come to a close on December 17th.  (The start of the O Antiphons  :-\) )   There will be no morning service on December 24th with Christmas Eve services that night. 

A friend asked if I'd ever seen this done.  I haven't.  Have you?  What are you doing?

November 26 is Christ the King/Last Sunday of the Church Year

December 24 is the 4th Sunday in Advent.

That evening is Christmas Eve.

I've never heard of a congregation 'moving' the Sunday in Advent.

Amen Jim!  Where do they get the authority to do such a thing?  Crazy.

Jeremy

This comes from a pastor who found out from colleagues that some were moving Advent, dispensing with the morning Advent 4 service, celebrating Christmas Eve in the evening of the 24th.   I'm not certain where authority would come from - the bishop of the synod, the president of the district?   My experience has been that this 'authority' isn't welcome in the local parish.

Richard Johnson

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 10403
  • Create in me a clean heart, O God.
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2017, 04:01:56 PM »
There's been a lot of chatter about this on the ELCA Clergy Facebook page. The primary underlying reason for considering such a move is "so I don't have to do so much work since there won't be that many people there anyway (on Dec. 24 morning)."

We always did the full four services on December 24 when it was a Sunday. It's only once every six years or so, and I don't recall a noticeable decline at either morning or evening services. And, of course, it is meet, right and salutary so to do.

We also, the last several years of my ministry, had confirmation on Christ the King. It worked very well. Extended family often already there if it was Thanksgiving weekend. The theme connects well with confirmation ("you are choosing today to follow a very different King" etc.). Left other traditional choices like Reformation Day or Palm Sunday or Pentecost to be their own thing. Disassociated confirmation from graduations.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Harvey_Mozolak

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 4686
    • View Profile
    • line and letter lettuce
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2017, 04:05:31 PM »
James Gale, thank you for the reference which I may have been recalling but is there any such canon or practice that a communicant should not commune more than once during a day.... I have had Lutherans say that, "Oh I have been to communion already toda, this morning, not going during the Reformation service now this afternoon..."?

Which of course, does not speak to the gifts of communion apart from forgiveness and to the latter the fact that even a few hours may have resulted in a few assorted sins... duh....
Harvey S. Mozolak
my poetry blog is listed below:

http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

MaddogLutheran

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 3490
  • It's my fantasy football avatar...
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2017, 04:10:35 PM »
We also, the last several years of my ministry, had confirmation on Christ the King. It worked very well. Extended family often already there if it was Thanksgiving weekend. The theme connects well with confirmation ("you are choosing today to follow a very different King" etc.). Left other traditional choices like Reformation Day or Palm Sunday or Pentecost to be their own thing. Disassociated confirmation from graduations.
My congregation's Christian ed leadership just decided to move confirmation to the fall next year as well, for several reasons but the biggest being as you say:  separation from graduation.  It will be the second Sunday of October, not Christ the King.  While we nominally targeted Pentecost, we did move it around depending on the calendar that year, i.e. never on Memorial Day weekend, and sometimes even after Trinity Sunday if Easter was early.

Our goal is to use the early fall to try and integregate the kids (and their parents) into a routine that they might continue with after the "big day".  We have a viable senior high youth group--historically retaining about 20-25% of confirmands on a regular basis.  So the hope is that being with these older kids modeling behavior before conformation will give them a sense of belonging.

Sterling Spatz
Sterling Spatz
ELCA pew-sitter

Weedon

  • Guest
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2017, 04:17:29 PM »
Ah, it was not my imagination. In the 1960 Rubrics of the Roman Mass, under vigils (which are defined as the liturgical day prior to a feast), the Vigil of the Nativity replaces the 4th Sunday in Advent (see par. 31). Now whether this practice predated 1960, Iím not sure. More to research. Now, where did I read it in a Lutheran source??? Wonder if it were in the Altar Guild Manual (Maxwell or Lang).

Dan Fienen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12580
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2017, 04:19:54 PM »
I used to serve a parish that was connected to a parochial school.  I always scheduled confirmation for Memorial Day Weekend.  That would end up being the weekend after grade school graduation, usually on Friday.  That way grandparents, aunts and uncles who had come for the graduation could also attend confirmation.  Also, being a long weekend made travelling back after confirmation Sunday easier.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

JEdwards

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2017, 04:20:48 PM »
James Gale, thank you for the reference which I may have been recalling but is there any such canon or practice that a communicant should not commune more than once during a day.... I have had Lutherans say that, "Oh I have been to communion already toda, this morning, not going during the Reformation service now this afternoon..."?

Which of course, does not speak to the gifts of communion apart from forgiveness and to the latter the fact that even a few hours may have resulted in a few assorted sins... duh....

The RC rules are quite arcane.  My understanding is that a layperson can commune a second time, provided it is in the context of a mass.  So, for example, one could receive communion at 2 separate masses, or receive first outside the context of mass (e.g., in a hospital room with a relative who is ill), followed by reception at mass later in the day.  The reverse sequence would not be permissible.  And, absent danger of death, receiving 3 times in a day is "right out".

Peace,
Jon

aletheist

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 1549
  • Greek aletheia = truth
    • View Profile
    • Catechism Devotional
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2017, 04:21:27 PM »
Our goal is to use the early fall to try and integregate the kids (and their parents) into a routine that they might continue with after the "big day".
The congregation where I am a member has been doing this for the last few years, as well.  After more traditional instruction in seventh and eighth grade, the students begin ninth grade with a "Fall of Formation," and then Confirmation takes place on Reformation Sunday.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 43160
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: November 26: Christ the King? Last Sunday? Advent?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2017, 05:24:26 PM »
I see no need to move things around. That said, we have used the 4th Sunday in Advent as an adapted Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent.

And as much as I miss a Christmas Day service, our council desires a Christmas Eve only service, so that folks can travel to relatives, etc. the next day.  ::)  So, my wife and I use the opportunity to attend the Christmas Day service elsewhere and, that afternoon, start a fire in the fireplace and kick back and listen to Praetorius' "Mass for Christmas Morning," dreaming about how wonderful it would be to participate in such a service.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=3879

Then, that evening after a prime rib dinner, we again kick back and watch that Christmas classic movie, "Die Hard."


Should a Christmas Day service be a council decision?
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]