Author Topic: Installation Question  (Read 3856 times)

Dave Benke

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2017, 11:33:49 AM »
I'm not sure Missouri would give a different answer to something that is an adiaphoron.

Steve asked earlier if I recalled what color stoles we wore at his wedding. I think it was probably the liturgical color. Because, at his installation, our well-respected circuit visitor decided that we would wear the liturgical color of the season for the installation. The preacher, Steve's mentor and vicarage supervisor (and maybe Rolf's too) showed up and castigated us for not wearing red- just reamed us out. (He'd been a long-time pastor there, and I guess he felt he had the authority to reprimand us.) I responded with a paraphrase of the quip the circuit visitor had made when rendering his decision: "We figured it took the first time." After the service I went up to him, thanked him for his message, and held out my hand. He refused to shake it and turned away.

So, Dick, there might be differing opinions in Missouri.

You've told this story a number of times here; what it has to do with whether or not the LCMS views the installation as actually "doing anything" (Rev. Johnson's words), I do not know.  However, a couple of thoughts:

1. I have no recollection of Pastor Anderson "reaming" anyone out about the color of stoles.  Perhaps he did and I do not remember it, or maybe I was not there when he did.  Or maybe his objection was not as violent as you are remembering.

2. According to the rubrics of LSB, Pastor Anderson was right -- since this installation was not during the regularly scheduled service of the congregation, the propers and colors for installation and ordination are to be used.  Which would be, in the case of color, red.  The rubrics for LW state that the propers are to be those of the Sunday (or festival) OR "those appointed on pages 218-22" -- which propers state the color is to be...red.

3. Perhaps Pastor Anderson felt that your attempt at humor was inappropriate, a personal ridiculing which he did not appreciate.

Yes, Pastor Anderson was my vicarage supervisor, mentor, and a spiritual father to me.  I will ALWAYS defend his reputation.

Thank you for your brotherly defense of Pastor Anderson, Steve.  I was the first in the line of many vicars who were blessed by his wonderful example.  David Anderson demanded a lot of work from his vicars.  He was a very disciplined man.  He was also a very humble man.  I will always be grateful to God for giving me David Anderson as my vicarage supervisor.  I served as vicar at Our Savior's and First English forty years ago, and what David taught me remains with me to this day.
Plus, when people travel to an installation service they typically don't want to bring every color of stole. It could be he was irritated that either a prior agreement or a safe assumption had been violated and now he had to scramble to find a matching stole or else stick out inappropriately in the service and photos. Or it could be he had planned to mention something about the stoles in the sermon that now he would not be able to include. Lots of possibilities. In any event, what it is illustrates is that there is great charity in sticking with common tradition on matters of adiaphora when trying to include and involve people from many congregations.

No, he knew ahead of time. The circuit visitor had let everyone know which stole we'd be wearing. If you knew him, or if you know him, you would know that he would cover that issue so that all would be done in good order, and that he is a disciple and good friend of Scaer; he's far from some renegade. The preacher (whom I had not named because that wasn't the point of my post) let us have it as he arrived and walked into the room where we were sitting prior to the service. My recollection is that he purposely brought and wore his red stole to emphasize how wrong we were regarding what is an adiaphoron. (Perhaps a photo would show whether or not that is the case.)

I mention this to again show the differing opinions in Missouri as to the importance of an installation and whether it is "actually doing anything." Some deem it meet, right, and salutary for reasons expressed above. Others deem it absolutely essential to the call and that the rite must be followed according to strict guidelines, including the symbolism for the red color.

Now that Dave Scaer has been mentioned, I think it's fair to bring up the distinction between ordination and installation in terms of liturgical color.  Dave, who holds the opinion that for Lutherans ordination is a sacrament, would (I believe) offer up red as the liturgical color for ordination, and the color of the day as the liturgical color for installation. 

In the Atlantic District, both options for installation would be deemed to be okeydokey, (ie adiaphora) although the predominant color has been red.  Another area of approach/avoidance is when an installation should be held/not held during the Church Year.  We have avoided Lent in this part of the world, and to a lesser extent, Advent.

Dave Benke

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2017, 11:52:31 AM »
The rubrics of the Common Service and Lutheran Book of Worship state the color red for ordination and the color of the season for installation.

Pax, Steven+
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Dave Benke

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2017, 12:21:16 PM »
The rubrics of the Common Service and Lutheran Book of Worship state the color red for ordination and the color of the season for installation.

Pax, Steven+

Thanks.  I agree with this, however:

I didn't want to diss the Missouri Synod.  The LCMS answers it this way when it comes to "red:"  (on its website) Additional uses of red are Reformation Sunday; Holy Cross Day (Sept. 14); on such festive occasions as dedications, anniversaries of a congregation and its physical structure; festive days celebrating the office of the public ministry, such as ordination and installation. 
So they link ordination and installation both to red. 

Having just returned from a very lovely "red" installation, it's going to continue to be an adiaphoron, and it should not be a matter of high dudgeon.  But if there's a desire to make a distinction between ordination and installation, then that liturgical color choice is one way for that distinction to be noticed.

Dave Benke

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2017, 12:49:25 PM »
The ELW Leaders Edition gives the following colors for Commemorations.


white: saints, missionaries, renewers of the church, renewers of society, pastors and bishops, theologians and teachers, artists and scientist


red: martyrs


What might it indicate when we use red for an installation? :)
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John_Hannah

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2017, 01:02:35 PM »
White is now the color for ordinations and installations in the Roman Catholic Church.  I think it is because ministry originates from the resurrection.

Peace, JOHN
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Dave Benke

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2017, 01:28:02 PM »
The ELW Leaders Edition gives the following colors for Commemorations.


white: saints, missionaries, renewers of the church, renewers of society, pastors and bishops, theologians and teachers, artists and scientist


red: martyrs


What might it indicate when we use red for an installation? :)

Your willingness to join that holy band.

Dave Benke

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2017, 01:34:48 PM »
The ELW Leaders Edition gives the following colors for Commemorations.


white: saints, missionaries, renewers of the church, renewers of society, pastors and bishops, theologians and teachers, artists and scientist


red: martyrs


What might it indicate when we use red for an installation? :)

That the Holy Spirit uses THIS man to bring the Word and Sacraments to YOU, His people here.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2017, 07:44:03 PM »
The ELW Leaders Edition gives the following colors for Commemorations.

white: saints, missionaries, renewers of the church, renewers of society, pastors and bishops, theologians and teachers, artists and scientist

red: martyrs

What might it indicate when we use red for an installation? :)

Check the propers for "Installation of a Pastor" in ELW's Occasional Services book.   It also appears on the ELCA Website (dated 2013) at http://www.elca.org/en/Resources/Worship#Liturgy, saying:
Quote from: Installation of a Pastor
Color: of the season or of the day

So in the ELCA/ELCIC it's red if that's the color of the day, which is found in both the Calendar and Propers in ELW's Pew and Leaders editions (as it was found in those sections of LBW Pew and Ministers editions).  It would also be red if the Installation is part of an Ordination.  Same as under LBW, SBH, and the Common Service.

Pax, Steven+
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 07:49:32 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #83 on: November 01, 2017, 10:33:14 PM »
I was installed 6 times at my first parish; all the normal weekend services. Weird
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Timothy Schenks

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Re: Installation Question
« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2017, 06:12:51 PM »
The rubrics of the Common Service and Lutheran Book of Worship state the color red for ordination and the color of the season for installation.

Pax, Steven+

Thanks.  I agree with this, however:

I didn't want to diss the Missouri Synod.  The LCMS answers it this way when it comes to "red:"  (on its website) Additional uses of red are Reformation Sunday; Holy Cross Day (Sept. 14); on such festive occasions as dedications, anniversaries of a congregation and its physical structure; festive days celebrating the office of the public ministry, such as ordination and installation. 
So they link ordination and installation both to red. 

Having just returned from a very lovely "red" installation, it's going to continue to be an adiaphoron, and it should not be a matter of high dudgeon.  But if there's a desire to make a distinction between ordination and installation, then that liturgical color choice is one way for that distinction to be noticed.

Dave Benke

Iíve seen some installations in Missouri use the color of the season if itís during the Divine Service, and red if itís a separate service later on in the day.
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