Author Topic: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?  (Read 2677 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2017, 09:13:12 PM »

And we know who united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

ELCA Congregations 12/31/2008: 10,396
                              12/31/2015:  9,320 -- down 10.35%

Baptized Members  12/31/2008: 4,633,887
                            12/31/2015: 3,668,034 -- down 20.84%

Average weekly attendance/congregation 12/31/2008: 128                        across ELCA: 1,330,688
                                                            12/31/2015: 105 -- down 17.97%                      978,600 down 26.46%

Pastors in congregational calls 9/21/2009: 8,143
                                             9/15/2016: 6,561 -- down 19.43%

Ahh, yes, the blessed the unity of the ELCA...

heh.  heh    :D :'(


Still the largest Lutheran body in the U.S. :)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2017, 09:21:46 PM »
I'm sure most if not all Christian congregations have members with all kinds of beliefs about every matter of doctrine, not just Lutherans. So, on the one hand separating from a church that teaches false doctrine is good because light cannot have fellowship with darkness but division is sinful if you separate from a church that teaches truth. But which doctrines are true and which ones are false is what the divisions are about with all sides labeling each other as wrong and thus you have different churches teaching different things remaining separate. I don't think this sinful it's honest disagreements. 400 years ago the Calvinists executed Michael Servetus just for writing a book that denied the trinity dogma. I'm relieved no one here is advocating killing heretics.


We need to remember that Jesus was killed because church leaders thought he was a heretic. So were nearly all the apostles and other Christians. We might need to examine ourselves when we start thinking others are heretics. They might just be the ones with the truth, like the prophets and the Messiah of old.

And Jesus agreed with his accusers sealing his fate.  That is part of Jesus' mission to take the sin of everyone upon himself.  Read the text!

I do not think Jesus agreed with his accusers that he was blaspheming. He agreed that they believed that he was blaspheming. He also stated that those who blaspheme against him can be forgiven.

No.  Read the text from The Gospel of St. Mark 14:61b-62:   

"Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’  Jesus said, ‘I am; and

“you will see the Son of Man
seated at the right hand of the Power”,
and “coming with the clouds of heaven.”’


You stopped reading too soon. How did the High priest react to his statements?


"And the high priest tore his garments and said, 'What further witnesses do we need? You have heard his blasphemy. What is your decision?' And they all condemned him as deserving death." (Mark 14:63-64)


The whole council believed that Jesus blasphemed. Since Jesus heard the high priest, he knew that they believed that he had blasphemed. I'm certain that Jesus didn't agree with their verdict. He knew that he was speaking the truth.

I don't need to read further because it does not change the argument:  Jesus self-designated as Messiah in truth here.  He agreed with his accusers who said that he said that he was the Messiah.  He is the Messiah in truth.  The irony is deafening in that he agreed with their accusation but as the Suffering Servant in truth had to do this to take the sin of the whole world including the sin of the accusers into himself.  The accusers were correct in their accusations.

readselerttoo

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2017, 09:26:39 PM »

And we know who united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

ELCA Congregations 12/31/2008: 10,396
                              12/31/2015:  9,320 -- down 10.35%

Baptized Members  12/31/2008: 4,633,887
                            12/31/2015: 3,668,034 -- down 20.84%

Average weekly attendance/congregation 12/31/2008: 128                        across ELCA: 1,330,688
                                                            12/31/2015: 105 -- down 17.97%                      978,600 down 26.46%

Pastors in congregational calls 9/21/2009: 8,143
                                             9/15/2016: 6,561 -- down 19.43%

Ahh, yes, the blessed the unity of the ELCA...

heh.  heh    :D :'(


Still the large   :)st Lutheran body in the U.S. :)

Maybe.  But don't count your chickens before they're hatched.   :) ;) :P

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2017, 09:59:44 PM »

And we know who united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

ELCA Congregations 12/31/2008: 10,396
                              12/31/2015:  9,320 -- down 10.35%

Baptized Members  12/31/2008: 4,633,887
                            12/31/2015: 3,668,034 -- down 20.84%

Average weekly attendance/congregation 12/31/2008: 128                        across ELCA: 1,330,688
                                                            12/31/2015: 105 -- down 17.97%                      978,600 down 26.46%

Pastors in congregational calls 9/21/2009: 8,143
                                             9/15/2016: 6,561 -- down 19.43%

Ahh, yes, the blessed the unity of the ELCA...

heh.  heh    :D :'(


Still the large   :)st Lutheran body in the U.S. :)

Maybe.  But don't count your chickens before they're hatched.   :) ;) :P


Part of our problem is that our chickens are no longer laying eggs. :)
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2017, 10:21:55 PM »

And we know who united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

ELCA Congregations 12/31/2008: 10,396
                              12/31/2015:  9,320 -- down 10.35%

Baptized Members  12/31/2008: 4,633,887
                            12/31/2015: 3,668,034 -- down 20.84%

Average weekly attendance/congregation 12/31/2008: 128                        across ELCA: 1,330,688
                                                            12/31/2015: 105 -- down 17.97%                      978,600 down 26.46%

Pastors in congregational calls 9/21/2009: 8,143
                                             9/15/2016: 6,561 -- down 19.43%

Ahh, yes, the blessed the unity of the ELCA...

heh.  heh    :D :'(


Still the large   :)st Lutheran body in the U.S. :)

Maybe.  But don't count your chickens before they're hatched.   :) ;) :P


Part of our problem is that our chickens are no longer laying eggs. :)

true dat...mission field is wide open.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2017, 10:39:43 PM »

And we know who united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

ELCA Congregations 12/31/2008: 10,396
                              12/31/2015:  9,320 -- down 10.35%

Baptized Members  12/31/2008: 4,633,887
                            12/31/2015: 3,668,034 -- down 20.84%

Average weekly attendance/congregation 12/31/2008: 128                        across ELCA: 1,330,688
                                                            12/31/2015: 105 -- down 17.97%                      978,600 down 26.46%

Pastors in congregational calls 9/21/2009: 8,143
                                             9/15/2016: 6,561 -- down 19.43%

Ahh, yes, the blessed the unity of the ELCA...

heh.  heh    :D :'(

Still the largest Lutheran body in the U.S. :)

And the creator of the biggest schism in Lutheranism.
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog

readselerttoo

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2017, 10:58:27 PM »

And we know who united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

ELCA Congregations 12/31/2008: 10,396
                              12/31/2015:  9,320 -- down 10.35%

Baptized Members  12/31/2008: 4,633,887
                            12/31/2015: 3,668,034 -- down 20.84%

Average weekly attendance/congregation 12/31/2008: 128                        across ELCA: 1,330,688
                                                            12/31/2015: 105 -- down 17.97%                      978,600 down 26.46%

Pastors in congregational calls 9/21/2009: 8,143
                                             9/15/2016: 6,561 -- down 19.43%

Ahh, yes, the blessed the unity of the ELCA...

heh.  heh    :D :'(

Still the largest Lutheran body in the U.S. :)

And the creator of the biggest schism in Lutheranism.

Whoa...nice one, Dude.

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Hauerwas on Protestantism: Why are We Still Here?
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2017, 11:19:57 PM »

Still the largest Lutheran body in the U.S. :)

And the creator of the biggest schism in Lutheranism.

Whoa...nice one, Dude.

On further reflection, perhaps Pr. Stoffregen is actually agreeing with Nurseken7.  After all, we so frequently misunderstand him.


I know of one way that is absolutely guaranteed to end all divisions in Christianity. Reduce the number of Christians in the world to one individual person, boom! no more divisions....

And we know how united the Lutherans are … NOT. Not even within our denominations. I believe that the ELCA is transforming divisions into full-communion partnerships. We are bridging our differences. We center on the things that unite us as the children of God.

zip+
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
Pastor Zip's Blog