Author Topic: Gun Control Again  (Read 16251 times)

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2017, 11:12:29 AM »
Last Friday (my day off) I went out to the gun range to shoot a few .38 Special revolvers.  Two of them were over 100 years old (Colt Police Positive Special and S&W Hand Ejector), one was 70 years old (S&W M&P), and the other (S&W Model 10) was 40 years old.  They were all very effective.  And fun. 

Two weeks ago, my wife and I completed the renewal course for our state carry permits.  We took along a young woman who had never fired a handgun until we took her to the range earlier that month.  She is a natural!  She started that first day with a .22 revolver, then a .22 semi-auto, then a .38 revolver, finally a 9mm semi-auto.  I was very impressed!  At the qualifying range for the permit class, she used a .22 semi-auto and did great.  The instructor (chief deputy for the Red Lake County sheriff's department) then had her use his Glock .40 -- she outshot me.  As did my wife (who used her late father's Ruger .22, for only the second time, as a tribute to him -- he passed away a year and a half ago).  Both these ladies showed good gun control.


My more recent question wasn't about gun control, but gun safety. Gun safety, as I've expressed it among our people, isn't just about knowing how to shoot a gun straight and accurate; but also knowing how not to shoot. The shootings that make the news are usually events where someone should not have shot at a person.

I wasn't addressing your post or its question.  The thread heading is "Gun Control Again".  But, to satisfy you, let me assure you that EVERY class for the state permit to carry includes significant time in discussing the issues you mention; it is mandated.  Additionally, when my wife first told me that she would like to learn to shoot, we took an introductory class on handgun basics/safety, taught by two law enforcement officers from our community; hours were spent on proper technique of handling weapons, as well as when to shoot/not shoot. 

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2017, 11:33:17 AM »
Last Friday (my day off) I went out to the gun range to shoot a few .38 Special revolvers.  Two of them were over 100 years old (Colt Police Positive Special and S&W Hand Ejector), one was 70 years old (S&W M&P), and the other (S&W Model 10) was 40 years old.  They were all very effective.  And fun. 

Two weeks ago, my wife and I completed the renewal course for our state carry permits.  We took along a young woman who had never fired a handgun until we took her to the range earlier that month.  She is a natural!  She started that first day with a .22 revolver, then a .22 semi-auto, then a .38 revolver, finally a 9mm semi-auto.  I was very impressed!  At the qualifying range for the permit class, she used a .22 semi-auto and did great.  The instructor (chief deputy for the Red Lake County sheriff's department) then had her use his Glock .40 -- she outshot me.  As did my wife (who used her late father's Ruger .22, for only the second time, as a tribute to him -- he passed away a year and a half ago).  Both these ladies showed good gun control.


My more recent question wasn't about gun control, but gun safety. Gun safety, as I've expressed it among our people, isn't just about knowing how to shoot a gun straight and accurate; but also knowing how not to shoot. The shootings that make the news are usually events where someone should not have shot at a person.

I wasn't addressing your post or its question.  The thread heading is "Gun Control Again".  But, to satisfy you, let me assure you that EVERY class for the state permit to carry includes significant time in discussing the issues you mention; it is mandated.  Additionally, when my wife first told me that she would like to learn to shoot, we took an introductory class on handgun basics/safety, taught by two law enforcement officers from our community; hours were spent on proper technique of handling weapons, as well as when to shoot/not shoot.


Not all states require such classes. In Arizona, anyone over 21 can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. They can buy non-NFA firearms without permits or registration. Private sales do not require background checks.


Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2017, 11:42:41 AM »
Last Friday (my day off) I went out to the gun range to shoot a few .38 Special revolvers.  Two of them were over 100 years old (Colt Police Positive Special and S&W Hand Ejector), one was 70 years old (S&W M&P), and the other (S&W Model 10) was 40 years old.  They were all very effective.  And fun. 

Two weeks ago, my wife and I completed the renewal course for our state carry permits.  We took along a young woman who had never fired a handgun until we took her to the range earlier that month.  She is a natural!  She started that first day with a .22 revolver, then a .22 semi-auto, then a .38 revolver, finally a 9mm semi-auto.  I was very impressed!  At the qualifying range for the permit class, she used a .22 semi-auto and did great.  The instructor (chief deputy for the Red Lake County sheriff's department) then had her use his Glock .40 -- she outshot me.  As did my wife (who used her late father's Ruger .22, for only the second time, as a tribute to him -- he passed away a year and a half ago).  Both these ladies showed good gun control.


My more recent question wasn't about gun control, but gun safety. Gun safety, as I've expressed it among our people, isn't just about knowing how to shoot a gun straight and accurate; but also knowing how not to shoot. The shootings that make the news are usually events where someone should not have shot at a person.

I wasn't addressing your post or its question.  The thread heading is "Gun Control Again".  But, to satisfy you, let me assure you that EVERY class for the state permit to carry includes significant time in discussing the issues you mention; it is mandated.  Additionally, when my wife first told me that she would like to learn to shoot, we took an introductory class on handgun basics/safety, taught by two law enforcement officers from our community; hours were spent on proper technique of handling weapons, as well as when to shoot/not shoot.


Not all states require such classes. In Arizona, anyone over 21 can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. They can buy non-NFA firearms without permits or registration. Private sales do not require background checks.


Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?

What do you mean by "gun licenses"?  Are you talking about concealed carry permits?  A license to purchase?  To own?  I am not clear what activity you are talking about the state licensing.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2017, 11:44:23 AM »
Last Friday (my day off) I went out to the gun range to shoot a few .38 Special revolvers.  Two of them were over 100 years old (Colt Police Positive Special and S&W Hand Ejector), one was 70 years old (S&W M&P), and the other (S&W Model 10) was 40 years old.  They were all very effective.  And fun. 

Two weeks ago, my wife and I completed the renewal course for our state carry permits.  We took along a young woman who had never fired a handgun until we took her to the range earlier that month.  She is a natural!  She started that first day with a .22 revolver, then a .22 semi-auto, then a .38 revolver, finally a 9mm semi-auto.  I was very impressed!  At the qualifying range for the permit class, she used a .22 semi-auto and did great.  The instructor (chief deputy for the Red Lake County sheriff's department) then had her use his Glock .40 -- she outshot me.  As did my wife (who used her late father's Ruger .22, for only the second time, as a tribute to him -- he passed away a year and a half ago).  Both these ladies showed good gun control.


My more recent question wasn't about gun control, but gun safety. Gun safety, as I've expressed it among our people, isn't just about knowing how to shoot a gun straight and accurate; but also knowing how not to shoot. The shootings that make the news are usually events where someone should not have shot at a person.

I wasn't addressing your post or its question.  The thread heading is "Gun Control Again".  But, to satisfy you, let me assure you that EVERY class for the state permit to carry includes significant time in discussing the issues you mention; it is mandated.  Additionally, when my wife first told me that she would like to learn to shoot, we took an introductory class on handgun basics/safety, taught by two law enforcement officers from our community; hours were spent on proper technique of handling weapons, as well as when to shoot/not shoot.

Not all states require such classes. In Arizona, anyone over 21 can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. They can buy non-NFA firearms without permits or registration. Private sales do not require background checks.

Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?

Are you seeing a plethora of accidental shootings due to unsafe handling of firearms, Brian?  If not, what is your point with this red herring?

Oh, right. The point of a red herring is that it has no point. It simply misleads, diverting from the real issue.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:49:07 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2017, 11:57:20 AM »
Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?
Since there is a Second Amendment, and courts have ruled that requiring a pregnant women to receive an ultrasound test result of her fetus before having an abortion is unconstitutional, I'm going to go ahead and say yes, there are good reasons.

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gan ainm

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2017, 01:38:30 PM »
Seems worthy for a cross post.

Sometimes it is just overall better to ignore the clueless.

Cochlaeus became obsessed with Luther and spent the rest of his life attacking the reformer's writings.  Luther soon decided not to respond, because "this way he will get much angrier, for if I were to answer him, he would only get proud."    Martin Luther, page 178, Lyndal Roper.     ;)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2017, 01:41:56 PM »
Last Friday (my day off) I went out to the gun range to shoot a few .38 Special revolvers.  Two of them were over 100 years old (Colt Police Positive Special and S&W Hand Ejector), one was 70 years old (S&W M&P), and the other (S&W Model 10) was 40 years old.  They were all very effective.  And fun. 

Two weeks ago, my wife and I completed the renewal course for our state carry permits.  We took along a young woman who had never fired a handgun until we took her to the range earlier that month.  She is a natural!  She started that first day with a .22 revolver, then a .22 semi-auto, then a .38 revolver, finally a 9mm semi-auto.  I was very impressed!  At the qualifying range for the permit class, she used a .22 semi-auto and did great.  The instructor (chief deputy for the Red Lake County sheriff's department) then had her use his Glock .40 -- she outshot me.  As did my wife (who used her late father's Ruger .22, for only the second time, as a tribute to him -- he passed away a year and a half ago).  Both these ladies showed good gun control.


My more recent question wasn't about gun control, but gun safety. Gun safety, as I've expressed it among our people, isn't just about knowing how to shoot a gun straight and accurate; but also knowing how not to shoot. The shootings that make the news are usually events where someone should not have shot at a person.

I wasn't addressing your post or its question.  The thread heading is "Gun Control Again".  But, to satisfy you, let me assure you that EVERY class for the state permit to carry includes significant time in discussing the issues you mention; it is mandated.  Additionally, when my wife first told me that she would like to learn to shoot, we took an introductory class on handgun basics/safety, taught by two law enforcement officers from our community; hours were spent on proper technique of handling weapons, as well as when to shoot/not shoot.


Not all states require such classes. In Arizona, anyone over 21 can carry a concealed weapon without a permit. They can buy non-NFA firearms without permits or registration. Private sales do not require background checks.


Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?

What do you mean by "gun licenses"?  Are you talking about concealed carry permits?  A license to purchase?  To own?  I am not clear what activity you are talking about the state licensing.


The parallel is made with driver's licenses. If anyone wants to purchase a gun, they need to pass both a written and practical/safety tests before being issued a permit to legally purchase or carry guns. Should hunters be stopped by law enforcement, they would have to show that they had paperwork to be carrying guns - just like they need to show that they have permits for each of the animals that they have killed. The hunters I knew in Wyoming all sent their kids through hunter safety programs before letting them go out hunting. They were quite angry at poachers who hunted without a proper permits. "Well regulated" is part of the language in the amendment.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2017, 01:43:57 PM »
Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?
Since there is a Second Amendment, and courts have ruled that requiring a pregnant women to receive an ultrasound test result of her fetus before having an abortion is unconstitutional, I'm going to go ahead and say yes, there are good reasons.


The Second Amendment uses the language of "well regulated". Allowing anyone who wants a firearm to buy and carry one is not well regulated. There are some people who should not have access to such weapons. There are some people who should not be driving a vehicle.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2017, 02:08:31 PM »
Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?
Since there is a Second Amendment, and courts have ruled that requiring a pregnant women to receive an ultrasound test result of her fetus before having an abortion is unconstitutional, I'm going to go ahead and say yes, there are good reasons.


The Second Amendment uses the language of "well regulated". Allowing anyone who wants a firearm to buy and carry one is not well regulated. There are some people who should not have access to such weapons. There are some people who should not be driving a vehicle.
In this context, "well regulated" is a legal term of art and has a particular meaning.  Not just any meaning you can think of.  Basically you are not qualified to exegesis it according to your personal preferences.  It has little in common with the licensing of drivers, as that is not constitutionally protected (other than general equal protection, i.e. no racial/sex discrimination).  One can own a car and yet not be licensed to drive it.

Yes, limits on gun ownership are legitimate.  Both the right to bear arms and suffrage can be taken away based on criminal convictions.  I don't see anyone here defending second amendment rights suggesting otherwise.  No one disagrees that mentally ill people should not have access to guns.  In fact, the failure of the mental health reporting has been identified as the commonality in many of these recent tragedies.  Not the failure to perform a background check.

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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2017, 03:52:45 PM »

The parallel is made with driver's licenses.

Legally, at least in the United States of America, the "parallel" doesn't hold.

Deal with it.

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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2017, 04:02:05 PM »

The parallel is made with driver's licenses.

Legally, at least in the United States of America, the "parallel" doesn't hold.

Deal with it.


I know it doesn't hold, but should there be a parallel? That's a question I'm seeing raised.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2017, 04:28:18 PM »

The parallel is made with driver's licenses.

Legally, at least in the United States of America, the "parallel" doesn't hold.

Deal with it.

I know it doesn't hold, but should there be a parallel? That's a question I'm seeing raised.

No, Brian, no one is "raising the question."  Some are simply asserting this is the way it should be.  To "raise the question," one must either actually ask a question, or propose an amendment to the Constitution that makes the parallel.  Because in this country that is what it would take to do so.
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James S. Rustad

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Re: Gun Control Again
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2017, 08:37:13 PM »
Not all states require such classes. In Arizona, anyone over 21 can carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

Has permitless concealed carry been a problem in Arizona?  I ask because other states with similar concealed carry laws have not had problems.

They can buy non-NFA firearms without permits or registration. Private sales do not require background checks.

The laws are similar in Wisconsin.  I'm not hearing about a lot of trouble caused by these laws.  We even removed our waiting period law a few years back because it didn't seem likely to help.  Again, is Arizona having problems?

Are there any good reasons why such basics/safety classes shouldn't be required for anyone who wishes to purchase or carry a gun? Couldn't states issue gun licenses like they do driver's license do those who have passed such courses (with periodic renewals)?

I'd prefer that some basic safety training be required of all people.  After all, gun owners are not the only people who may come into contact with a firearm.  Wouldn't it be good for all adults to at least know what NOT to do with a gun?

As for licensing?  Certainly driver licensing is a poor match to gun owner licensing.  But consider:
1) Wisconsin licenses people who are going to drive a motor vehicle on a public road.  Wisconsin also licenses people who are going to carry a concealed weapon in public.
2) Wisconsin does not license those who are going to drive only on private property OR those who are only going to load and shoot their firearm on private property.
3) Wisconsin also does not require a license to purchase a car or a firearm.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but it doesn't seem to work the way you think it does.



James S. Rustad

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Wrestling with a Pig in Mud
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2017, 08:48:51 PM »
Arguments like this thread remind me of a quote from the Saturday Evening Post.

"I’m not going to answer any more of your questions. I hope you won’t take this personally, but I am reminded of something my old uncle told me, long ago, back on the farm. He said. ‘What’s the sense of wrestling with a pig? You both get all over muddy . . . and the pig likes it.'"
-Cyrus Stuart Ching
 The Saturday Evening Post
 January 3, 1948
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:12:09 PM by James S. Rustad »

Chuck

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Re: Wrestling with a Pig in Mud
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2017, 11:00:03 PM »
Arguments like this thread remind me of a quote from the Saturday Evening Post.

"I’m not going to answer any more of your questions. I hope you won’t take this personally, but I am reminded of something my old uncle told me, long ago, back on the farm. He said. ‘What’s the sense of wrestling with a pig? You both get all over muddy . . . and the pig likes it.'"
-Cyrus Stuart Ching
 The Saturday Evening Post
 January 3, 1948
Quoting George Bernard Shaw, of course.
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw