Author Topic: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)  (Read 50203 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2017, 07:22:26 AM »
Certainly, which is a reason for me not to take her too seriously, or get all bent out of shape about her.  Besides, she is not attempting to join my church body so not my place to worry.


Nor, as I noted in my original post, do I take her as an indication of how low many in the ELCA have fallen.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 07:26:19 AM by Dan Fienen »
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Charles Austin

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2017, 11:09:55 AM »
 Your church body, Pastor Fienen, has already found three, five, seven, nine, who knows how many reasons to declare the rest of us heterodox, un-Lutheran, or worse.  At least you base those declarations mostly on things that we actually do teach and believe and have in our policy statements.
 No one in the LCMS needs to look for eccentric ideas voiced by young students in order to find reasons to say "ELCA! Icky! Bad!"
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns could’ve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2017, 11:15:18 AM »
   Nonetheless, her path to ordained ministry is under the guidance of a synod and its candidacy committee, and they are the ones closest to her and her path to public ministry in the ELCA.


Yes, and there was nothing in the article to indicate that she was under the auspices of a candidacy committee, nor which Lutheran seminary was fulfilling her "Lutheran" year.


There are two ELCA congregations in Bend, Oregon. The larger one is vacant. I don't think that a seminary would assign an intern to a congregation without a called pastor.


I'm not sure whether the interviewer didn't know enough about our "system" to ask the right questions or if the pastor-to-be is trying to pave her own way outside of our normal procedures. That is, she could be operating without a candidacy committee - who, if she is still "hooking up," are not likely to endorse her for ordination. She could be seeking her own internship site and not go through one of our seminaries, and not doing a "Lutheran year" at a seminary. None of those details were mentioned in the article.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2017, 11:46:00 AM »

 No one in the LCMS needs to look for eccentric ideas voiced by young students in order to find reasons to say "ELCA! Icky! Bad!"


Thanks for this admission. Very truthful of you....


And for the sake of inclusivity, I am reminded of an admission an LCMS Pastor friend of mine once stated, "Many people find many LCMS Pastors annoying....because we are."


Lou

Dan Fienen

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2017, 12:13:42 PM »

Your church body, Pastor Fienen, has already found three, five, seven, nine, who knows how many reasons to declare the rest of us heterodox, un-Lutheran, or worse.  At least you base those declarations mostly on things that we actually do teach and believe and have in our policy statements.
 No one in the LCMS needs to look for eccentric ideas voiced by young students in order to find reasons to say "ELCA! Icky! Bad!"
No need to look far to find members of your church body who say "LCMS! Icky! Bad!"  I am trying to be reasonable and not blanketly blame the ELCA for the eccentric (to say the least) actions and statements of someone who apparently would like to be ordained in the ELCA but so far has not been.  That reasonableness apparently just stirs up your resentment that we do not automatically agree with every pronouncement and policy of the ELCA, hence your scold.


I did not react to the eccentric ideas from this student by saying "ELCA! Icky! Bad!" but if it would make you feel better, I could.
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Charles Austin

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2017, 12:19:47 PM »
You not only could, you already have. Officially. ( assuming you agree with the declarations of your church body) We live with that.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns could’ve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2017, 12:48:50 PM »
Oh, also properly, one does not wear a stole until ordination. An M.Div. doesn't not entitle one to wear a stole. (I also think that if one is going to vest, it should include an alb or cassock/surplice under the stole.)


Notwithstanding congregations who put stoles on confirmations and/or have stoles on choir robes.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

dkeener

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2017, 12:55:31 PM »
   Nonetheless, her path to ordained ministry is under the guidance of a synod and its candidacy committee, and they are the ones closest to her and her path to public ministry in the ELCA.


Yes, and there was nothing in the article to indicate that she was under the auspices of a candidacy committee, nor which Lutheran seminary was fulfilling her "Lutheran" year.


There are two ELCA congregations in Bend, Oregon. The larger one is vacant. I don't think that a seminary would assign an intern to a congregation without a called pastor.


I'm not sure whether the interviewer didn't know enough about our "system" to ask the right questions or if the pastor-to-be is trying to pave her own way outside of our normal procedures. That is, she could be operating without a candidacy committee - who, if she is still "hooking up," are not likely to endorse her for ordination. She could be seeking her own internship site and not go through one of our seminaries, and not doing a "Lutheran year" at a seminary. None of those details were mentioned in the article.

A quick search shows that she will be an intern at Nativity Lutheran in Bend Oregon. My assumption is that she has been endorsed and approved by an ELCA candidacy committee. As to whether they, or Nativity Lutheran, are aware of her views & interviews is another question. 

Jim Butler

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2017, 01:52:37 PM »
jebutler writes:
I mean, she openly confesses hooking up with other college students; doesn't that alone make her unfit for ministry?
I comment:
No, it does not. If we banned from ministry every person who had sexual "hook-ups" in college, we would really have a shortage of pastors. What matters is how one behaves as a public minister in the ELCA.


Many years ago, I was in a group of pastors and DPs and asked whether or not they thought someone with St. Augustine's past would (or should) be admitted to our seminaries and allowed to be on our roster. None of us had any problem with it.

Provided the person was repentant.

That is exactly what is lacking in Ms. Johnson. Instead of being repentant, she says she is "sex positive" and has no problems with her behavior. In fact, she actually boasts about it. That's the problem.
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Charles Austin

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2017, 02:16:14 PM »
 once again, the person in question is not ordained and presumably under the care of a Synod and a candidacy committee. And sometimes, "the market," as it were, does what the bureaucracy cannot do, namely determine which "products" are actually sellable.
And despite the discomfort it causes some of us, what that person is trying to do could be done in a way that does not violate our policies or belief. We would need a lot more information and discussion to determine that.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns could’ve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2017, 02:24:07 PM »
once again, the person in question is not ordained and presumably under the care of a Synod and a candidacy committee. And sometimes, "the market," as it were, does what the bureaucracy cannot do, namely determine which "products" are actually sellable.
And despite the discomfort it causes some of us, what that person is trying to do could be done in a way that does not violate our policies or belief. We would need a lot more information and discussion to determine that.


Ah, would that you could show such restraint and forbearance toward those not of your tribe in the political arena..... ;)


Lou

Jim Butler

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2017, 02:24:56 PM »
   Nonetheless, her path to ordained ministry is under the guidance of a synod and its candidacy committee, and they are the ones closest to her and her path to public ministry in the ELCA.


Yes, and there was nothing in the article to indicate that she was under the auspices of a candidacy committee, nor which Lutheran seminary was fulfilling her "Lutheran" year.


There are two ELCA congregations in Bend, Oregon. The larger one is vacant. I don't think that a seminary would assign an intern to a congregation without a called pastor.


I'm not sure whether the interviewer didn't know enough about our "system" to ask the right questions or if the pastor-to-be is trying to pave her own way outside of our normal procedures. That is, she could be operating without a candidacy committee - who, if she is still "hooking up," are not likely to endorse her for ordination. She could be seeking her own internship site and not go through one of our seminaries, and not doing a "Lutheran year" at a seminary. None of those details were mentioned in the article.

A quick search shows that she will be an intern at Nativity Lutheran in Bend Oregon. My assumption is that she has been endorsed and approved by an ELCA candidacy committee. As to whether they, or Nativity Lutheran, are aware of her views & interviews is another question.

She seems to make it quite clear that she has been working with the ELCA on her internship. (See http://messiahvancouver.org/Messiah-Happenings/Comings-and-goings-of-messiah-s-pastoral-interns-heidi-johnson-will-serve-as-17-18-pastoral-intern-at-nativity-lc-bend-or.html)

I'd really be curious to know if she has been forthright with them in her views on sexuality and her club. Now that this has been published, I wonder if they will rescind her internship.
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Matt Hummel

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2017, 02:30:35 PM »
Two thoughts-

Once more I point out that this poor young woman is obviously damaged. Her "Sex Positive" is a reaction to her sexual assault. That her candidacy committee has not done the caring thing and slam the brakes is just sad.

One of the things I like about Catholicism is the understanding of scandal- it isn't just that she is doing something objectively wrong (her speck, my log, etc.). It is that her public stance as a candidate of a Synod of the ELCA will lead others into serious error.  Prayers for her healing, and that if her vocation is genuine, that she receive the help she so desperately needs to get back on course.
 
When I was in the ELCA and we had an Episcopalian clergy couple (hetero, by the way) who were practicing druidism of some ilk. Some of my folks asked the whiskey tango foxtrot question, so I wrote an email to the Episcopla bishop asking why this was allowed to go on without correction. He repsonded that he did not want to instigate a witch hunt. I pointed out to him that it ain't a hunt if the people in question jump up, wave their arms and yell, "Look at me I'm a witch!" He did not appreciate my point. Right now, you have someone claiming to be part of the ELCA on a website representing a national magazine. It's time for a grownup to say something publicly.
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Charles Austin

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2017, 02:46:35 PM »
Perhaps that will come. From this distance and level of disconnect, we cannot be sure. Maybe the whole PP thing was a youthful fling. We should be very careful about making psychiatric diagnosis from this distance.
It is heartening to read to of her passion for people who suffer.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 02:51:58 PM by Charles Austin »
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns could’ve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

Dan Fienen

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Re: The Pussy Pastor (sigh!)
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2017, 02:53:28 PM »

You not only could, you already have. Officially. ( assuming you agree with the declarations of your church body) We live with that.
Official declarations of my church body have been a bit more nuanced and reasoned than simply "ELCA! Icky! Bad!"  But you take any criticism or disagreement with your positions, policies or actions as unreasonable and unreasoning, we have to live with that.  So much for thoughtful or even reasonable conversation.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 02:58:16 PM by Dan Fienen »
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