Author Topic: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38  (Read 1994 times)

Mark Brown

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2017, 10:48:06 AM »
Just wanted to throw a thanks to Matt and Will.  This thread helped homiletically this weekend.  There is a great tension that can be created by the passive "systematic" sin we are often placed into because of bad leadership and the "lover of mankind" who frees us from bondage to the world.  Even if it is just one person saying no.

Not meaning to go against Prof. Gibbs, but I don't think he goes far enough with those participles.  My standard complain of modern translations, they always choose the mental and conceptual and so softened words over the violent and earthy.  Danker and Friberg both say the root of the first participle is "flayed", Friberg talks about the second as being "cast overboard" and Danker as "forcefully thrown away".  When Jesus sees the crowds, his guts are churned, because they have been flayed and cast away, they have been bled dry and discarded, they have been eaten and the bones tossed, like sheep without a shepherd.  Such is the way of the world which only loves you as long as you have blood and strength to give.  Don't give it to them.  The Father has sent workers to free you from such slavery. 

Matt Staneck

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2017, 11:32:29 AM »

Not meaning to go against Prof. Gibbs, but I don't think he goes far enough with those participles.  My standard complain of modern translations, they always choose the mental and conceptual and so softened words over the violent and earthy.  Danker and Friberg both say the root of the first participle is "flayed", Friberg talks about the second as being "cast overboard" and Danker as "forcefully thrown away".  When Jesus sees the crowds, his guts are churned, because they have been flayed and cast away, they have been bled dry and discarded, they have been eaten and the bones tossed, like sheep without a shepherd.  Such is the way of the world which only loves you as long as you have blood and strength to give.  Don't give it to them.  The Father has sent workers to free you from such slavery.

I'm into it, Pr. Brown!

M. Staneck
Matt Staneck, Pastor
St. John's Evangelical Lutheran Church
Queens, NY

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2017, 12:10:02 PM »
Just wanted to throw a thanks to Matt and Will.  This thread helped homiletically this weekend.  There is a great tension that can be created by the passive "systematic" sin we are often placed into because of bad leadership and the "lover of mankind" who frees us from bondage to the world.  Even if it is just one person saying no.

Not meaning to go against Prof. Gibbs, but I don't think he goes far enough with those participles.  My standard complain of modern translations, they always choose the mental and conceptual and so softened words over the violent and earthy.  Danker and Friberg both say the root of the first participle is "flayed", Friberg talks about the second as being "cast overboard" and Danker as "forcefully thrown away".  When Jesus sees the crowds, his guts are churned, because they have been flayed and cast away, they have been bled dry and discarded, they have been eaten and the bones tossed, like sheep without a shepherd.  Such is the way of the world which only loves you as long as you have blood and strength to give.  Don't give it to them.  The Father has sent workers to free you from such slavery.


Danker also says that σκύλλω also originally meant "to skin". He also does not include "to flay" or "to skin" as meanings in the NT and other writings. Neither Lowe & Nida nor Newman include the original meanings in their definitions because they concentrate on the meanings in the New Testament. In contrast, ῥίπτω, retains its original meaning of "to throw" in the NT: Matthew 27:5; Luke 4:35; 17:2; Acts 27:19, 29. (Not always "throw overboard," but that's included).


The idea of "freeing from slavery" works contrary to a sheep with a shepherd who, to protect the sheep from predators, confines them in a pen; limits where they can go; forces them to go where the shepherd wants them. A good shepherd removes freedom from the sheep for their own protection.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mark Brown

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2017, 01:07:43 PM »
Just wanted to throw a thanks to Matt and Will.  This thread helped homiletically this weekend.  There is a great tension that can be created by the passive "systematic" sin we are often placed into because of bad leadership and the "lover of mankind" who frees us from bondage to the world.  Even if it is just one person saying no.

Not meaning to go against Prof. Gibbs, but I don't think he goes far enough with those participles.  My standard complain of modern translations, they always choose the mental and conceptual and so softened words over the violent and earthy.  Danker and Friberg both say the root of the first participle is "flayed", Friberg talks about the second as being "cast overboard" and Danker as "forcefully thrown away".  When Jesus sees the crowds, his guts are churned, because they have been flayed and cast away, they have been bled dry and discarded, they have been eaten and the bones tossed, like sheep without a shepherd.  Such is the way of the world which only loves you as long as you have blood and strength to give.  Don't give it to them.  The Father has sent workers to free you from such slavery.


Danker also says that σκύλλω also originally meant "to skin". He also does not include "to flay" or "to skin" as meanings in the NT and other writings. Neither Lowe & Nida nor Newman include the original meanings in their definitions because they concentrate on the meanings in the New Testament. In contrast, ῥίπτω, retains its original meaning of "to throw" in the NT: Matthew 27:5; Luke 4:35; 17:2; Acts 27:19, 29. (Not always "throw overboard," but that's included).


The idea of "freeing from slavery" works contrary to a sheep with a shepherd who, to protect the sheep from predators, confines them in a pen; limits where they can go; forces them to go where the shepherd wants them. A good shepherd removes freedom from the sheep for their own protection.

Direct quote from Danker's NT Lexicon (bolding mine).
Quote
5818  σκύλλω
σκύλλω [cp. σκάλλω ‘stir up’ as with use of a hoe; ‘skin, flay’, then ‘maltreat, molest’] ‘cause trouble for/to’, disturb, bother Mk 5:35; Lk 7:6; 8:49.  This sense applies to Mt 9:36, unless the writer uses dramatic imagery of pers. treated like plundered sheep ἐσκυλμένοι καὶ ἐρριμένοι skinned and flung about.

He literally suggests the dramatic imagery.

And that imagery of being systematically plundered is exactly what Jesus is addressing.  The shepherds (Kings, Priests, Levites) of Israel have led Israel astray becoming the bad shepherds that act like the overseers of Egypt.  And once again, as he freed the slaves and formed Israel as his treasured possession, God is acting to free his people from those shepherds that feed off the flock instead of pasture them in good grass.  It starts with sending the twelve - the growth of the new Israel.  Slaves and sheep go together in the biblical story.  They both are helpless unless helped by God.  They both are freed not to be libertines, but to follow a new master/shepherd.

Brian's logic only works if you have a antinomian liberal protestant or liberationist theology.  Both of which are in error because they fail to recognize the rightful rule of Christ.  We do not desire freedom in the modern western libertine sense, but the freedom of just and wise rule.  Something sadly lacking from much of our Kings and Priests and Levites today.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 02:20:58 PM »
I find it quite interesting that right after Jesus tells them to pray for more workers, he sends out the apostles. Perhaps God answers our prayer with, "You are the worker I'm sending."

When I got to Brooklyn several hundred years ago, the old-timers would tell stories about the Ur-Pastor, Dr. Brunn, who was pastor for 45 years.  He had a way, they said, of coming up to you, putting his arm around your shoulders, and within minutes, seconds even, you were volunteered for church service; you were enlisted, enrolled, and on active duty.

I thought that was such an amazingly good idea that I took it directly from him for a subsequent forty years.  It's in line with this text. 

I had put the arm on a man many years ago to do home visitation and evangelistic outreach - he was a very sincere Christian.  He went out twice a week and was amazingly dedicated. Except he wasn't a member of the congregation.  His mom was alive, and Roman Catholic, and he couldn't make that move while she was alive.  When she died and he moved to another state, he joined the Missouri Synod, and signed up for the evangelism committee.  He called me after being there for a year.  They hadn't made any calls as yet, he said.  They were studying the theology of evangelism.  But - he added - they really know how to make and drink coffee.     8)

Last time I saw him, he was attending a non-denominational church and active in outreach.

Dave Benke
This is an unfortunate but common tale. And I think it highlights a downside to the arm-around-the-shoulder approach to ministry, which often lasts as long as the particular arm in question. People often (note: not always, but often) struggle (further note: not find themselves utterly incapable, but really struggle) to transition to another congregation or pastor because of how large a role the personal touch/relationship played in their formation. 

What was stopping any member of the congregation and/or evangelism committee from going door to door and talking about Jesus and inviting people to church? Just because the evangelism committee wasn't doing that doesn't mean they were preventing anyone else. There are a lot of hours in the month besides the one devoted to the evangelism committee meeting, but it sounds like a guy who would rather join a non-denominational church that does aggressive outreach than be in a Lutheran church that has a lot of pointless meetings could have really used an hour a month devoted to learning the theology of evangelism. Alas.

YMMV when it comes to evangelism committees. One ought not tie one's personal desire to share the faith with others to the machinations of any committee, no matter how active or lethargic and coffee-addicted.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2017, 03:49:18 PM »
Direct quote from Danker's NT Lexicon (bolding mine).
Quote
5818  σκύλλω
σκύλλω [cp. σκάλλω ‘stir up’ as with use of a hoe; ‘skin, flay’, then ‘maltreat, molest’] ‘cause trouble for/to’, disturb, bother Mk 5:35; Lk 7:6; 8:49.  This sense applies to Mt 9:36, unless the writer uses dramatic imagery of pers. treated like plundered sheep ἐσκυλμένοι καὶ ἐρριμένοι skinned and flung about.

Which Lexicon is that? I don't find that in his editions of Bauer's Greek-English Lexicons.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mark Brown

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2017, 04:11:33 PM »
Direct quote from Danker's NT Lexicon (bolding mine).
Quote
5818  σκύλλω
σκύλλω [cp. σκάλλω ‘stir up’ as with use of a hoe; ‘skin, flay’, then ‘maltreat, molest’] ‘cause trouble for/to’, disturb, bother Mk 5:35; Lk 7:6; 8:49.  This sense applies to Mt 9:36, unless the writer uses dramatic imagery of pers. treated like plundered sheep ἐσκυλμένοι καὶ ἐρριμένοι skinned and flung about.

Which Lexicon is that? I don't find that in his editions of Bauer's Greek-English Lexicons.

I'm pulling it from Bibleworks electronic copy, but the reference work cited is:

The Concise Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament, Frederick William Danker with Kathryn Krug, © 2009 by The University of Chicago All rights reserved.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Harassed and Helpless: Matthew 9:35-38
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2017, 04:22:17 PM »
Direct quote from Danker's NT Lexicon (bolding mine).
Quote
5818  σκύλλω
σκύλλω [cp. σκάλλω ‘stir up’ as with use of a hoe; ‘skin, flay’, then ‘maltreat, molest’] ‘cause trouble for/to’, disturb, bother Mk 5:35; Lk 7:6; 8:49.  This sense applies to Mt 9:36, unless the writer uses dramatic imagery of pers. treated like plundered sheep ἐσκυλμένοι καὶ ἐρριμένοι skinned and flung about.

Which Lexicon is that? I don't find that in his editions of Bauer's Greek-English Lexicons.

I'm pulling it from Bibleworks electronic copy, but the reference work cited is:

The Concise Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament, Frederick William Danker with Kathryn Krug, © 2009 by The University of Chicago All rights reserved.


Thank you. That's different than Bauer, Arndt, Gingrinch Lexicons that Danker has edited. It's also a quite different meaning than the other occurrences of the word in the NT:

Mk 5:35 While he was still speaking, some people came from the leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the teacher any further?”

Lu 7:6 And Jesus went with them, but when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to say to him, “Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof;

Lu 8:49 While he was still speaking, someone came from the leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer.”
 
Also, I wonder if sheep were skinned and flung about?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 04:23:59 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]