Author Topic: Party Affiliation of American Clergy  (Read 8632 times)

readselerttoo

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2017, 04:59:12 PM »

I will confess to a certain amount of confusion.  On the one hand, Pr. Stoffregen has vehemently supported the idea that salvation is by grace alone, nothing that we do has anything to do with it even to the point of wondering if the phrase by grace through faithis proper since it could be construed that our faith, our belief in Jesus could be considered something that we do.  So, not even faith is really necessary since who are we to say that Jesus cannot save people who do not believe in Him or do not know anything about Him.


On the other hand, the Gospel becomes in his construal any good news, even about Julius Caesar being emperor and we proclaim the Gospel when we do the kind of things that Jesus did in helping those around Him.  Suddenly, doing what we are supposed to do as Christians becomes Gospel, whether or not Jesus is even mentioned.  That seems incoherent.


The Greek words εὐαγγελίζομαι and εὐαγγέλιον had meanings long before Jesus appeared. They are used in the OT without any reference to Jesus. They still have those meanings. When the doctor says, "It's a healthy baby boy," or "the tests came back negative," that is εὐαγγέλιον. When we give food or drink to the hungry and thirsty, that is εὐαγγέλιον to them. When we forgive as we have been forgiven, is it only Jesus' forgiveness that is good news, or when we forgive those who have sinned against us, should that also be good news for them?


Just as we have a civil and theological uses of the Law. There might be civil and theological uses of the gospel. The theological (or narrow) use is limited to what God has done, is doing, and promises to do for us. The civil (or broader) use is about the mercy and kindness and help and witness we do for our neighbors - which is good news to them.

See how different the Greek word is used in Galatians from what it would be used for in the Septuagint.  It is not for the same thing.

readselerttoo

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2017, 05:09:21 PM »
The good news of the Gospel is what Jesus did, and continues to do ... FOR ME!  and for you.  In my opinion, it is not what Jesus tells me, or you, to do (Law).  There is no good news when I'm given or told of the Law, it only shows me how very, very far I fall short.  The Law ALWAYS accuses, even when it tells us how to live as Jesus lived which is completely impossible for anyone other than Jesus.


Consider being a sheep without a shepherd - free to do whatever it wants. Such a free sheep is likely to wander off and be killed by a predator. The shepherd offer guidance and protection. The Law is a bit like that. It offers guidance and protection. We can look at the Ten as protecting things. The first three protect our relationship with God. There is one God. We are to use his name to speak to him. We are to set aside time to listen to him. The others protect our families, protects lives, protects marriages, protect property, protects reputations, protects us from ourselves.


You seem to look at the Law as something to be avoided. The Law was and continues to be a gift from God for our guidance and protection. We have Jesus telling us: "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them loves me. Whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them." (John 14:21 CEB) There is a connection between our love for Jesus and keeping his commandments. One of those commandments is:"Love each other. Just as I have loved you, so you also must love each other. This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, when you love each other." (John 13:34-35 CEB). It is not our correct theology that informs the world that we are Jesus' disciples, but our love for each other. Yes, it's Law. It's also a command from Jesus, our good Shepherd. It is for our own good.


Ok.  Here is an example of where Pr. Stoffregen and the Liberal Leftist Biblical Revisionists (LLBR) confuse law and gospel.  The law that Jesus talks about in John 14 is NOT related to the 10 Commandments.  The "love one another" is specifically for the disciples.  Christ's new commandment in John has absolutely no relationship with the force of the Mosaic content as in the 10 commandments.  To combine the two as if they were the same is to destroy the comfort and freedom of the unique NT Gospel by making it have Mosaic content and force.

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2017, 05:12:42 PM »
I teach one side of an issue: salvation is totally by God's grace received by faith. You seem to take the opposite interpretation.

And you know this from...where?
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but its not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2017, 06:33:24 PM »
I teach one side of an issue: salvation is totally by God's grace received by faith. You seem to take the opposite interpretation.

And you know this from...where?


Scriptures and our confessions.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2017, 06:37:51 PM »
The good news of the Gospel is what Jesus did, and continues to do ... FOR ME!  and for you.  In my opinion, it is not what Jesus tells me, or you, to do (Law).  There is no good news when I'm given or told of the Law, it only shows me how very, very far I fall short.  The Law ALWAYS accuses, even when it tells us how to live as Jesus lived which is completely impossible for anyone other than Jesus.


Consider being a sheep without a shepherd - free to do whatever it wants. Such a free sheep is likely to wander off and be killed by a predator. The shepherd offer guidance and protection. The Law is a bit like that. It offers guidance and protection. We can look at the Ten as protecting things. The first three protect our relationship with God. There is one God. We are to use his name to speak to him. We are to set aside time to listen to him. The others protect our families, protects lives, protects marriages, protect property, protects reputations, protects us from ourselves.


You seem to look at the Law as something to be avoided. The Law was and continues to be a gift from God for our guidance and protection. We have Jesus telling us: "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them loves me. Whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them." (John 14:21 CEB) There is a connection between our love for Jesus and keeping his commandments. One of those commandments is:"Love each other. Just as I have loved you, so you also must love each other. This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, when you love each other." (John 13:34-35 CEB). It is not our correct theology that informs the world that we are Jesus' disciples, but our love for each other. Yes, it's Law. It's also a command from Jesus, our good Shepherd. It is for our own good.


Ok.  Here is an example of where Pr. Stoffregen and the Liberal Leftist Biblical Revisionists (LLBR) confuse law and gospel.  The law that Jesus talks about in John 14 is NOT related to the 10 Commandments.  The "love one another" is specifically for the disciples.  Christ's new commandment in John has absolutely no relationship with the force of the Mosaic content as in the 10 commandments.  To combine the two as if they were the same is to destroy the comfort and freedom of the unique NT Gospel by making it have Mosaic content and force.


Law is Law. Whether it is from Exodus 20, Leviticus 19 (where it does command us to love our neighbor as ourselves), or John 13. The Law are words that tell us what we should or shouldn't do. Some come from God. Some come from our mothers. Some come from civil authorities. Our own moral codes are laws that we use to tell us what we should and shouldn't do.


God uses the Law (regardless of where it might come from) for two (or maybe three) uses. How God uses the Law doesn't change what it is: words that tell us what we are to do.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2017, 06:41:51 PM »

I will confess to a certain amount of confusion.  On the one hand, Pr. Stoffregen has vehemently supported the idea that salvation is by grace alone, nothing that we do has anything to do with it even to the point of wondering if the phrase by grace through faithis proper since it could be construed that our faith, our belief in Jesus could be considered something that we do.  So, not even faith is really necessary since who are we to say that Jesus cannot save people who do not believe in Him or do not know anything about Him.


On the other hand, the Gospel becomes in his construal any good news, even about Julius Caesar being emperor and we proclaim the Gospel when we do the kind of things that Jesus did in helping those around Him.  Suddenly, doing what we are supposed to do as Christians becomes Gospel, whether or not Jesus is even mentioned.  That seems incoherent.


The Greek words εὐαγγελίζομαι and εὐαγγέλιον had meanings long before Jesus appeared. They are used in the OT without any reference to Jesus. They still have those meanings. When the doctor says, "It's a healthy baby boy," or "the tests came back negative," that is εὐαγγέλιον. When we give food or drink to the hungry and thirsty, that is εὐαγγέλιον to them. When we forgive as we have been forgiven, is it only Jesus' forgiveness that is good news, or when we forgive those who have sinned against us, should that also be good news for them?


Just as we have a civil and theological uses of the Law. There might be civil and theological uses of the gospel. The theological (or narrow) use is limited to what God has done, is doing, and promises to do for us. The civil (or broader) use is about the mercy and kindness and help and witness we do for our neighbors - which is good news to them.

See how different the Greek word is used in Galatians from what it would be used for in the Septuagint.  It is not for the same thing.


I checked. Pretty much the same definition. Rather than the good news like: "David won the battle against the Philistines!" It's the good news, "Jesus won the battle against sin and death."
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Mike Bennett

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2017, 08:03:53 PM »
A less contentious reply than some:  I am a chart geek, and this article has some great examples of "the right chart to show the information."
What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?  2 Kings 9:22

readselerttoo

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2017, 08:04:56 PM »
The good news of the Gospel is what Jesus did, and continues to do ... FOR ME!  and for you.  In my opinion, it is not what Jesus tells me, or you, to do (Law).  There is no good news when I'm given or told of the Law, it only shows me how very, very far I fall short.  The Law ALWAYS accuses, even when it tells us how to live as Jesus lived which is completely impossible for anyone other than Jesus.


Consider being a sheep without a shepherd - free to do whatever it wants. Such a free sheep is likely to wander off and be killed by a predator. The shepherd offer guidance and protection. The Law is a bit like that. It offers guidance and protection. We can look at the Ten as protecting things. The first three protect our relationship with God. There is one God. We are to use his name to speak to him. We are to set aside time to listen to him. The others protect our families, protects lives, protects marriages, protect property, protects reputations, protects us from ourselves.


You seem to look at the Law as something to be avoided. The Law was and continues to be a gift from God for our guidance and protection. We have Jesus telling us: "Whoever has my commandments and keeps them loves me. Whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them." (John 14:21 CEB) There is a connection between our love for Jesus and keeping his commandments. One of those commandments is:"Love each other. Just as I have loved you, so you also must love each other. This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, when you love each other." (John 13:34-35 CEB). It is not our correct theology that informs the world that we are Jesus' disciples, but our love for each other. Yes, it's Law. It's also a command from Jesus, our good Shepherd. It is for our own good.


Ok.  Here is an example of where Pr. Stoffregen and the Liberal Leftist Biblical Revisionists (LLBR) confuse law and gospel.  The law that Jesus talks about in John 14 is NOT related to the 10 Commandments.  The "love one another" is specifically for the disciples.  Christ's new commandment in John has absolutely no relationship with the force of the Mosaic content as in the 10 commandments.  To combine the two as if they were the same is to destroy the comfort and freedom of the unique NT Gospel by making it have Mosaic content and force.


Law is Law. Whether it is from Exodus 20, Leviticus 19 (where it does command us to love our neighbor as ourselves), or John 13. The Law are words that tell us what we should or shouldn't do. Some come from God. Some come from our mothers. Some come from civil authorities. Our own moral codes are laws that we use to tell us what we should and shouldn't do.


God uses the Law (regardless of where it might come from) for two (or maybe three) uses. How God uses the Law doesn't change what it is: words that tell us what we are to do.


I do not see how loving neighbor as one loves oneself the same as love-one-another.  One love begins with the measure that one loves one's self, ie. a self-centered love which doesn't begin with neighbor.  The specific NT love-one-another, on the other hand, assumes that there is a prior love outside of oneself and outside of neighbor which initiates the loving.  The first OT love is retributive.  The second love is motivated from beyond, ie. by the living Christ's love for us, ie. me and my neighbor. 

You are confusing the Old Testament for the New.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 08:08:20 PM by George Rahn »

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2017, 08:46:16 PM »
I teach one side of an issue: salvation is totally by God's grace received by faith. You seem to take the opposite interpretation.

And you know this from...where?

Scriptures and our confessions.

You know the interpretation that I take from...where?
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but its not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2017, 02:23:56 AM »
I do not see how loving neighbor as one loves oneself the same as love-one-another.  One love begins with the measure that one loves one's self, ie. a self-centered love which doesn't begin with neighbor.  The specific NT love-one-another, on the other hand, assumes that there is a prior love outside of oneself and outside of neighbor which initiates the loving.  The first OT love is retributive.  The second love is motivated from beyond, ie. by the living Christ's love for us, ie. me and my neighbor. 

You are confusing the Old Testament for the New.


In the context of Leviticus 19:18, the "neighbor" refers to "one another". That is, fellow Jews. A later command is about loving immigrants (Leviticus 19:34). It is essentially the same as Jesus' Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12). What we would like done to us, should guide what we do to others.

The Leviticus rule is one that the synoptics quote Jesus as saying (Matthew 19:19; 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27) and in Paul (Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14); and James (2:8). It would seem that if I'm confusing the Old Testament with the New, so were Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James. I think I'm in pretty good company.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Pr. Don Kirchner

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2017, 01:15:34 PM »
I teach one side of an issue: salvation is totally by God's grace received by faith. You seem to take the opposite interpretation.

And you know this from...where?

Scriptures and our confessions.

You know the interpretation that I take from...where?

<crickets>

Of course, simply an 8th commandment misrepresentation of my confession.   >:(
Pr. Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but its not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

readselerttoo

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2017, 01:36:02 PM »
I do not see how loving neighbor as one loves oneself the same as love-one-another.  One love begins with the measure that one loves one's self, ie. a self-centered love which doesn't begin with neighbor.  The specific NT love-one-another, on the other hand, assumes that there is a prior love outside of oneself and outside of neighbor which initiates the loving.  The first OT love is retributive.  The second love is motivated from beyond, ie. by the living Christ's love for us, ie. me and my neighbor. 

You are confusing the Old Testament for the New.


In the context of Leviticus 19:18, the "neighbor" refers to "one another". That is, fellow Jews. A later command is about loving immigrants (Leviticus 19:34). It is essentially the same as Jesus' Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12). What we would like done to us, should guide what we do to others.

The Leviticus rule is one that the synoptics quote Jesus as saying (Matthew 19:19; 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27) and in Paul (Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14); and James (2:8). It would seem that if I'm confusing the Old Testament with the New, so were Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James. I think I'm in pretty good company.


Yes loving the immigrant but they also are charged interest on commodity transactions.  What kind of love is that?  :'(

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2017, 03:41:26 PM »
I do not see how loving neighbor as one loves oneself the same as love-one-another.  One love begins with the measure that one loves one's self, ie. a self-centered love which doesn't begin with neighbor.  The specific NT love-one-another, on the other hand, assumes that there is a prior love outside of oneself and outside of neighbor which initiates the loving.  The first OT love is retributive.  The second love is motivated from beyond, ie. by the living Christ's love for us, ie. me and my neighbor. 

You are confusing the Old Testament for the New.


In the context of Leviticus 19:18, the "neighbor" refers to "one another". That is, fellow Jews. A later command is about loving immigrants (Leviticus 19:34). It is essentially the same as Jesus' Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12). What we would like done to us, should guide what we do to others.

The Leviticus rule is one that the synoptics quote Jesus as saying (Matthew 19:19; 22:39; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27) and in Paul (Romans 13:8; Galatians 5:14); and James (2: 8) . It would seem that if I'm confusing the Old Testament with the New, so were Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James. I think I'm in pretty good company.

Yes loving the immigrant but they also are charged interest on commodity transactions.  What kind of love is that?  :'(


Who wasn't changing interest on commodity transactions? The unique aspect is that they didn't charge interest to fellow Israelites. They also wouldn't punish a Gentile for working on the Sabbath as the law commanded them to do to Jewish folks. There was to be a clear distinction between God's people and Gentiles. The Jews were to obey the laws from Sinai. Gentiles did not have to.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2017, 03:54:58 PM »
I teach one side of an issue: salvation is totally by God's grace received by faith. You seem to take the opposite interpretation.

And you know this from...where?

Scriptures and our confessions.

You know the interpretation that I take from...where?

<crickets>

Of course, simply an 8th commandment misrepresentation of my confession.   >:(


Since I am certain that what I preach and teach comes from scriptures and our confessions, and you question and disagree with me, you must be using a different source for the basis of your beliefs.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Party Affiliation of American Clergy
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2017, 04:22:53 PM »
I teach one side of an issue: salvation is totally by God's grace received by faith. You seem to take the opposite interpretation.

And you know this from...where?

Scriptures and our confessions.

You know the interpretation that I take from...where?

<crickets>

Of course, simply an 8th commandment misrepresentation of my confession.   >:(

Since I am certain that what I preach and teach comes from scriptures and our confessions, and you question and disagree with me, you must be using a different source for the basis of your beliefs.

Yeah, like that should change Pastor Kirchner's >:( into a  ;D ...

Or any of the several others here who have been calling you on your unscrupulous argumentation...
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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