Author Topic: "in accordance with the scriptures"  (Read 9947 times)

readselerttoo

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #165 on: April 22, 2017, 05:07:30 PM »
Whatever they believe God is saying to them through a text must be OK because that's what God is saying to them.


Pure existentialist hubris....


Doesn't make it untrue. I've been to Bible studies where the leader asks, "What does this mean to you?"


Should someone say, "I hear God saying to me through this text, …." On what basis would you tell him/her, "No, God is not saying that in this text?"

Maybe what the words actually say?


What do the words say? is a different question than What do the words mean to you?

True.  But the hermeneutical circle always returns to the scriptures, ie. God's word.  If they remain at what the words mean to you, then you just have an opinion.


What hermeneutical circle? Hermeneutics as I understand and use the term creates the bridge between the ancient text and the contemporary hearer. It doesn't return to the text, but targets the hearer; but it comes after the exegetical work of dealing with the text, which means answering questions about "What does it say?" (which means looking at the original words, their meanings, grammar, etc.) and "What did it mean?" (which means trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the first hearers). From that information, it moves to "What does it mean for me and my congregation?" How does it expose our sins and kill us? How does it forgive those sins and restore our lives? Those are just some of the hermeneutical questions that I have on my study sheet.

Here is where I disagree.  The return to scripture after its hearing is to return to God's word rather than to my opinion or to the opinion of the biblical writers.  What is the difference between scripture as God's word vs. scripture as the opinions of various biblical writers and their writings?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #166 on: April 22, 2017, 07:12:27 PM »
Rev. Stoffregen,

I see that you have changed and modified your earlier post, to which I had already responded.  You make it hard to have a discussion when you change what you write after someone replies to it.  It would have been more honest if you had made a separate, second post.  As it is, how can one be expected to carry on a conversation with you, knowing that you may just go back and re-write something else later?


Immediately after I posted it, I saw some things that needed correcting and I modified it. Often, I can't see mistakes in formatting until after posting something - and nearly every time I copy and paste, there are mistakes in formatting. It was after I posted the modifications that I noticed that you had responded to the earlier version. I'm surprised that you could have responded to it while I was modifying it. Perhaps a glitch in this software.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #167 on: April 22, 2017, 07:15:07 PM »
Whatever they believe God is saying to them through a text must be OK because that's what God is saying to them.


Pure existentialist hubris....


Doesn't make it untrue. I've been to Bible studies where the leader asks, "What does this mean to you?"


Should someone say, "I hear God saying to me through this text, …." On what basis would you tell him/her, "No, God is not saying that in this text?"

Maybe what the words actually say?


What do the words say? is a different question than What do the words mean to you?

True.  But the hermeneutical circle always returns to the scriptures, ie. God's word.  If they remain at what the words mean to you, then you just have an opinion.


What hermeneutical circle? Hermeneutics as I understand and use the term creates the bridge between the ancient text and the contemporary hearer. It doesn't return to the text, but targets the hearer; but it comes after the exegetical work of dealing with the text, which means answering questions about "What does it say?" (which means looking at the original words, their meanings, grammar, etc.) and "What did it mean?" (which means trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the first hearers). From that information, it moves to "What does it mean for me and my congregation?" How does it expose our sins and kill us? How does it forgive those sins and restore our lives? Those are just some of the hermeneutical questions that I have on my study sheet.

Here is where I disagree.  The return to scripture after its hearing is to return to God's word rather than to my opinion or to the opinion of the biblical writers.  What is the difference between scripture as God's word vs. scripture as the opinions of various biblical writers and their writings?


The same difference between Jesus as truly human and Jesus as truly divine. The Bible is a human book and the Bible is God's word. In Christianity things and people can have two natures at the same time.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #168 on: April 22, 2017, 08:21:27 PM »
Rev. Stoffregen,

I see that you have changed and modified your earlier post, to which I had already responded.  You make it hard to have a discussion when you change what you write after someone replies to it.  It would have been more honest if you had made a separate, second post.  As it is, how can one be expected to carry on a conversation with you, knowing that you may just go back and re-write something else later?


Immediately after I posted it, I saw some things that needed correcting and I modified it. Often, I can't see mistakes in formatting until after posting something - and nearly every time I copy and paste, there are mistakes in formatting. It was after I posted the modifications that I noticed that you had responded to the earlier version. I'm surprised that you could have responded to it while I was modifying it. Perhaps a glitch in this software.

Is that the post that you edited an hour later, well after Rev Bohler's response? A glitch in the software?!

Are we to modify intellectually dishonest to simply dishonest?
Don Kirchner

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Chuck

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #169 on: April 22, 2017, 08:53:59 PM »
Is that the post that you edited an hour later, well after Rev Bohler's response? A glitch in the software?!

Are we to modify intellectually dishonest to simply dishonest?
« Last Edit: Today at 01:32:06 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
« Reply #163 on: Today at 01:44:37 PM » from Bohler


Who's dishonest?
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #170 on: April 22, 2017, 09:23:53 PM »
Is that the post that you edited an hour later, well after Rev Bohler's response? A glitch in the software?!

Are we to modify intellectually dishonest to simply dishonest?
« Last Edit: Today at 01:32:06 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
« Reply #163 on: Today at 01:44:37 PM » from Bohler

Who's dishonest?

Brian
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Steven W Bohler

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #171 on: April 22, 2017, 09:24:27 PM »
Is that the post that you edited an hour later, well after Rev Bohler's response? A glitch in the software?!

Are we to modify intellectually dishonest to simply dishonest?
« Last Edit: Today at 01:32:06 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
« Reply #163 on: Today at 01:44:37 PM » from Bohler


Who's dishonest?

Rev. Stoffregen's original post was at 12:38:59.  I responded at 12:43:58.  His modification of his earlier post was at 1:39:51.  So, I responded 5 minutes after he posted his original; his revision was posted 56 minutes after my response.  My subsequent post was at 4:44:37 (not 1:44:37, as you had written).  Rev. Kirchner's time-line is correct; yours, not so much. 

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #172 on: April 22, 2017, 09:44:25 PM »
My subsequent post was at 4:44:37 (not 1:44:37, as you had written).
Those are the same times, just the timezone difference, and I did not just make it up. You are insulting as usual.
Chuck Ruthroff

I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. —George Bernard Shaw

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #173 on: April 22, 2017, 10:19:22 PM »
My subsequent post was at 4:44:37 (not 1:44:37, as you had written).
Those are the same times, just the timezone difference, and I did not just make it up. You are insulting as usual.

 :o
Don Kirchner

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Steven W Bohler

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #174 on: April 22, 2017, 11:03:08 PM »
My subsequent post was at 4:44:37 (not 1:44:37, as you had written).
Those are the same times, just the timezone difference, and I did not just make it up. You are insulting as usual.

I think all posts are dated/timed from the same time zone, not the time zone of the one writing.  Otherwise it would be impossible to follow, even if one knew what time zone everyone else was in.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #175 on: April 22, 2017, 11:04:36 PM »
Indeed.

Apologize, Chuck.
Don Kirchner

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #176 on: April 22, 2017, 11:12:29 PM »
By the way, Chuck, some might find it insulting that you referred to me only by my last name.  Especially since you used both first and last names for Rev. Stoffregen.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #177 on: April 23, 2017, 03:28:57 AM »
My subsequent post was at 4:44:37 (not 1:44:37, as you had written).
Those are the same times, just the timezone difference, and I did not just make it up. You are insulting as usual.

I think all posts are dated/timed from the same time zone, not the time zone of the one writing.  Otherwise it would be impossible to follow, even if one knew what time zone everyone else was in.


The time is set by the computer on which one is reading the posts. It can be changed under profile.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #178 on: April 23, 2017, 07:22:04 AM »
remember since the resurrection... that happened just a week ago or was it 2000 years ago...
anyway, since Christ is risen
eternity is a time zone
oh, no, that is an anachronism
well, no it can't be that because it is not a khronological inconsistency
hold on check your watches
maybe it is a kairology kairological consistency
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 01:23:19 PM by Harvey_Mozolak »
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http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

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Re: "in accordance with the scriptures"
« Reply #179 on: April 23, 2017, 08:39:05 PM »
remember since the resurrection... that happened just a week ago or was it 2000 years ago...
anyway, since Christ is risen
eternity is a time zone
oh, no, that is an anachronism
well, no it can't be that because it is not a khronological inconsistency
hold on check your watches
maybe it is a kairology kairological consistency


I noted:

« Last Edit: Today at 11:23:19 AM by Harvey_Mozolak »






Wouldn't it be nice if we had a "modify" button on our lives that let us go back and make changes.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]