Author Topic: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH  (Read 3234 times)

peter_speckhard

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2017, 04:17:23 PM »
Peter, you say:

I think that ultimately everyone will hear something akin to the words, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant," from either Jesus or Satan himself. My guess is Lewis would say that some who are so commended by Christ might not have known Him by Name or called themselves Christians in this life....

I understand that you are saying what Lewis might say.  Do you agree with him?
Heavy emphasis on the "might" aspect of things. I wouldn't say it is impossible, but nor am I privy to the basis on which they would be received into the kingdom if they did not have Christ's righteousness by faith or (obviously) their own righteousness by works.

I use similar reasoning on the question of whether baptism is necessary for salvation. I say it is, but I do not thereby say that nobody who wasn't baptized has been saved. The comparison I make in confirmation class is to ask, "Do you need a ticket to go to the Cubs (or Packers, or Bears, or whatever) game?" If the kids say yes, then I ask them if that means every single person in the stadium, from the umpires to the security guards to the tv announcers to the folks cooking hot dogs had a ticket to get into the game. They usually say no, they doubt every single person there always has a ticket. I then say, "So if there are possible examples of people in the stadium without a ticket, you're saying a ticket isn't necessary to go to the game, so let's go to the game!" Then, of course, they'll say that we can't get into the game without tickets. The issue isn't whether a ticket is absolutely necessary in the abstract. The issue is whether it is necessary for us.

The same issue applie to baptism. If you say it is necessary, people will point to some circumstance like a baby who died in the car on the way to church to be baptized-- "Are you saying that baby went to hell? You must be saying that because he wasn't baptized and baptism is necessary for salvation." But if you say, no, baptism isn't necessary, they'll say, "So it doesn't matter in the sense of actually changing your relationship to God in any eternally significant sense. It is just an outward symbol." Both conclusions are wrong because they seek to answer the question in the abstract rather than focusining on the "for you" aspect of the sacraments.

The blood on the doorposts at Passover-- what if you did the lintel but only one doorpost by accident? Would the angel of death not skip your house? What if you accidentally used blood from a defective lamb? What if dog licked the blood off before morning? All the what-ifs simply detract from the simple promise that through this sacred act and physical element, God does things. So we seek to do them according to His command and leave the rest to him.

We know, or at least have it on good assurance, that there will be self-righteous people who think of themselves as Christians in this life but who are not received into the kingdom at the judgment. We can speculate that perhaps the reverse is true, too. But we can't base an approach to evangelism on that assumption.     

Tom Eckstein

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2017, 04:50:03 PM »
In my humble opinion, this thread is a stark reminder God is in charge.  All we can do is faithfully proclaim the Word, over and over.  God will choose whom He wishes, for His reasons.  The rest is vanity on our parts to think we are in charge ... vanity.  Thanks be to God that He is God and not me.

Exactly why my wife is much more concerned about my son's lack of faith than I am, and she doesn't understand why I'm not more upset about it. I just say, "the Holy Spirit works faith when and where he will." So I pray, but I do not fret.

Parents have a great responsibility to bring up their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. 

I recall an incident at my first call. An elder had a daughter who was raised in the church but walked away as an adult. I knew this bothered him, but I didn't know how much. We were were watching a video, and Steven Hein was a speaker. At one point he made a comment about the issue at hand, stating, "As parents you are not called to be perfect. You are called to be faithful." I saw the visible effect this had on the elder. Later, we talked in private, and I repeated what Hein had said. The elder began to quietly weep in relief. He'd been carrying that guilt around for years, that somehow he was responsible for his daughter leaving the church.

I think many parents who did their best to nurture their children in the Christian Faith are (wrongly) crushed by Proverbs 22:6, "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."  Satan uses this to accuse them, and so they think:  "We must have failed our children somehow regarding their Christian instruction, because if we had done it properly they would not have turned from Christ when they became adults."
We need to say several things to such Christian parents:

First, NO Christian parents do a perfect job raising their children in the Faith.  We ALL could have been more faithful.  We ALL could have been better examples.  That's why we need a Savior.  We are forgiven in Christ!

Second, even though we Christian parents are not perfect, God used us nevertheless to give life to our children and nurture them in Christ and His Gifts.  God blessed our children through us!

Third, even though we Christian parents DID nurture our children in the Faith, this doesn't change the fact that our children can reject the nurture God gave to them through us.  In other words, Proverbs 22:6 is not an absolute promise but a general principle.  Simply put, children will far more likely grow up to trust in the Lord if they were nurtured in His Word versus if they never were.

Finally, parents don't save their children, GOD does - and the really good news is that God loves our children far more than we do.  If anyone is concerned about the eternal salvation of our children it is the God who sacrificed His Son for them.  If our children whom we nurtured in the Lord have rejected Him as adults we may grieve but we can take that grief to the Lord who claimed them as His own in Holy Baptism and will not so easily forsake them.
I'm an LCMS Pastor in Jamestown, ND.

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2017, 08:48:08 PM »
your answer surprises me, Peter, but then I do not know you well...
I can agree and have said much the same thing...
like your ballpark illustration and if I were still teaching, would like to credit and use it...
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2017, 10:29:37 PM »
In my humble opinion, this thread is a stark reminder God is in charge.  All we can do is faithfully proclaim the Word, over and over.  God will choose whom He wishes, for His reasons.  The rest is vanity on our parts to think we are in charge ... vanity.  Thanks be to God that He is God and not me.

Exactly why my wife is much more concerned about my son's lack of faith than I am, and she doesn't understand why I'm not more upset about it. I just say, "the Holy Spirit works faith when and where he will." So I pray, but I do not fret.

Parents have a great responsibility to bring up their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. 

I recall an incident at my first call. An elder had a daughter who was raised in the church but walked away as an adult. I knew this bothered him, but I didn't know how much. We were were watching a video, and Steven Hein was a speaker. At one point he made a comment about the issue at hand, stating, "As parents you are not called to be perfect. You are called to be faithful." I saw the visible effect this had on the elder. Later, we talked in private, and I repeated what Hein had said. The elder began to quietly weep in relief. He'd been carrying that guilt around for years, that somehow he was responsible for his daughter leaving the church.

I think many parents who did their best to nurture their children in the Christian Faith are (wrongly) crushed by Proverbs 22:6, "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it."  Satan uses this to accuse them, and so they think:  "We must have failed our children somehow regarding their Christian instruction, because if we had done it properly they would not have turned from Christ when they became adults."
We need to say several things to such Christian parents:

First, NO Christian parents do a perfect job raising their children in the Faith.  We ALL could have been more faithful.  We ALL could have been better examples.  That's why we need a Savior.  We are forgiven in Christ!

Second, even though we Christian parents are not perfect, God used us nevertheless to give life to our children and nurture them in Christ and His Gifts.  God blessed our children through us!

Third, even though we Christian parents DID nurture our children in the Faith, this doesn't change the fact that our children can reject the nurture God gave to them through us.  In other words, Proverbs 22:6 is not an absolute promise but a general principle.  Simply put, children will far more likely grow up to trust in the Lord if they were nurtured in His Word versus if they never were.

Finally, parents don't save their children, GOD does - and the really good news is that God loves our children far more than we do.  If anyone is concerned about the eternal salvation of our children it is the God who sacrificed His Son for them.  If our children whom we nurtured in the Lord have rejected Him as adults we may grieve but we can take that grief to the Lord who claimed them as His own in Holy Baptism and will not so easily forsake them.
I would like to point out that if you looked at my entire post, my point was that while parents do have a great deal of responsibility, they cannot finally determine how their children will turn out.  Despite their best efforts, children will sometimes end up being far different from what their parents tried to teach them to be.  I DID NOT intend to imply that when a child ends up away from the faith, it is the parents fault.
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2017, 10:45:38 PM »
Dan,

I see Tom's post as simply expanding on yours and mine. I certainly was doing so in responding to yours.
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Tom Eckstein

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2017, 01:18:29 AM »
Dan,

I see Tom's post as simply expanding on yours and mine. I certainly was doing so in responding to yours.

Dan, Don is correct.  My post was expanding on yours.  I was not implying that you were suggesting that parents are ultimately responsible for whether their children believe or not.  Of course, we also agree that we Christians parents have the duty and privilege of nurturing our children in the Lord and refusing to do so would be sin.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2017, 03:09:26 AM »
Good, I just  wanted to make  sure  that  I wasn't  misunderstood.
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J. Eriksson

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Re: Keeping PKs PGKs MKs and MGKs in the FAITH
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2017, 05:08:36 AM »


Thanks to all

some thoughts

Case study(which makes my mother weep):  Medical scientist, born of active church members, missionary parents, his  sister and family active church people, ...50 years ago...parents drop kids off at Sunday school,  parents maybe upstairs in worship,  kids don't want to go back  "there was kicking under the table"  don't go back..kids grow up absolutely unchurched,  as do their kids,    no points of connection between us who go to church and they who don't..  Their view of Faith, the church and Christians is entirely formed by  secular media stereotypes with little or no connection to anyone of Faith.

We can all tell of case studies.    Is there any case study research?  Books on this?  unpublished D. Minn theses?

All of us would agree that it is the HS that calls, gathers, enlightens and sanctifies us but for the most part The HS did this to us while we were seated in the pews but we rightly imo fear what could happen to those who never get to hear.   We bask in "the joy of thy salvation" and rightly want this joy for those most dearest to us.

In Weedon's post he mentioned a Pastor Braaten presentation on this subject at an upcoming conference. Will,  can you invite him to join this discussion?

and in Weedon's post ;  he mentioned "inculcating"   I'm not sure if that is the right verb...at least from my dictionary.

when 'H' age 99 and getting confused 'spoke to us in love '  we heard it in love.

when 'L'  tried to speak to us in love...we didn't hear it that way.

Marie asks:" In addition to prayer, unconditional love and the gift of time what, if anything, is our calling in the life of children and grandchildren?"    curiousity about their studies, and discoveries

Best to all and have a Blessed Holy Week and Easter    my thanks again

james
I'm not a pastor.  Please don't call me one.