Author Topic: Gnosticism: Alive and well within Lutheranism  (Read 10879 times)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Gnosticism: Alive and well within Lutheranism
« Reply #255 on: April 05, 2017, 12:06:29 PM »
Pastor Bohler writes:
(and church bureaucracies/politicians are not much different than political ones).

I comment:
Yes, they are.
Secular bureaucrats and politicians can fight and wrangle, even bitterly, over policies and procedures and then - when the session is over - go out for a beer and laugh together. It ain't personal and it ain't "defending" The Word Of God.
For some church folk, believing they have, defend, and stand for The Pure Word Of God makes the laughs and beers with those who oppose them difficult.


A friend who had worked in politics before becoming an ordained minister said the same thing. There's greater checks and balance in secular politics. While we might be on opposite sides on this bill, I might need your help on the next bill. In my analogy, it's more like sports teams. Players who are opposite teams and battling each other this season, could be on the same team next season. Keeping the opposition about the game and not personal is essential for what might come up in the future. Or, as my friend said, being opponents on an issue doesn't mean we have to be enemies.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Dave Benke

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Re: Gnosticism: Alive and well within Lutheranism
« Reply #256 on: April 05, 2017, 12:53:12 PM »
Pastor Bohler writes:
(and church bureaucracies/politicians are not much different than political ones).

I comment:
Yes, they are.
Secular bureaucrats and politicians can fight and wrangle, even bitterly, over policies and procedures and then - when the session is over - go out for a beer and laugh together. It ain't personal and it ain't "defending" The Word Of God.
For some church folk, believing they have, defend, and stand for The Pure Word Of God makes the laughs and beers with those who oppose them difficult.


A friend who had worked in politics before becoming an ordained minister said the same thing. There's greater checks and balance in secular politics. While we might be on opposite sides on this bill, I might need your help on the next bill. In my analogy, it's more like sports teams. Players who are opposite teams and battling each other this season, could be on the same team next season. Keeping the opposition about the game and not personal is essential for what might come up in the future. Or, as my friend said, being opponents on an issue doesn't mean we have to be enemies.

I appeared as a non-delegate to speak about the Nehemiah Plan at the 1986 LCMS convention, which was in Indianapolis.  The camera crew were not the usual St. Louis-based, and were brought in from the real world.  While shooting the breeze with one veteran guy, he commented, "I've been behind the camera at five or six national political conventions, Republican and Democrat, but what's happening here is far more actively political than those.  These people are playing for keeps!"  That stuck with me through the years.  And 1986 was a pretty tame year in the Missouri Synod matrix.

Dave Benke

Dan Fienen

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Re: Gnosticism: Alive and well within Lutheranism
« Reply #257 on: April 05, 2017, 02:01:41 PM »
I don't know, seems that secular politics is increasing being played for keeps on both sides of the aisle.  Would like to be be able to blame Democrats or Republicans for the change but I think it's coming from both sides.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Gnosticism: Alive and well within Lutheranism
« Reply #258 on: April 05, 2017, 02:09:04 PM »
for the charges so often flung out there that we are becoming such an accepting anything culture (aren't there about as many sexual escapades among Democrat as among Republican leaders)... battle lines are more distinct, violent and aimed at extermination even more than domination of the opposing side...  also in the church... and while the line was clear between denominations and internal denominational cousins were not happy often with each other in the past... now the lines are drawn internally within the denomination more rapidly and distinctly than between denominations...
Harvey S. Mozolak
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http://lineandletterlettuce.blogspot.com

Dave Likeness

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Re: Gnosticism: Alive and well within Lutheranism
« Reply #259 on: April 05, 2017, 04:31:46 PM »
Harvey, you nailed it.  There are no longer any battles BETWEEN denominations.  For example the
ELCA and LCMS have gone their separate ways on "open communion", abortion, gay marriage,
and the ordination of women.  For the official stance on these issues, they have the exact opposite
views on them.  They have stopped giving official greetings by the respective Presidents/Bishops
at their Synodical Conventions and Church-wide Assemblies.

The battles WITHIN denominations have cooled off somewhat. Most of those who disagreed with
the 2009 decisions of the ELCA have left to form new alphabet churches.  The LCMS is in more of a
survival mode as they try to keep enrollment up at their two seminaries, and watch small parishes
start to dissolve for financial reasons.  Declining memberships in both the ELCA and the LCMS are
a fact of life.





« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 04:42:40 PM by Dave Likeness »