Author Topic: Raising an Ebenezer at the church of her (March, 2005)  (Read 31203 times)

Brian Hughes

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 06:46:37 AM »
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2) If there is nothing that can be done to correct the situation by virtue of discipline, then is it time for the orthodox and the heterodox to part ways?
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 There's plenty that could be done, but it wouldn't be pleasant for those seeking to do so.  In the synod where this congregation offers its ministry it would mean confronting a number of situations open to disciplinary process.  The office of the bishop would be left with answering the question, "Why this one and not that one?"  That leaves it up to local congregations to band together and file charges.  Not a fun time.  Trust me, it would get real nasty.

So it is doubtful anything will occur.  Just take a deep breath and understand that goddess worship is happening in a congregation wearing the same franchise label as yours.  

brian

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2005, 07:33:11 AM »
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[So it is doubtful anything will occur.  Just take a deep breath and understand that goddess worship is happening in a congregation wearing the same franchise label as yours.

If I were to "interpret everything they do in the best possible light" as the 8th Commandment and Luther's meaning tells us to do, I see them expanding our understanding of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This same God was involved in the lives of Sarah, Rebekkah, Leah and Rachel -- and their stories are also part of scriptures.

If "God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them" (Gen 1:27), there has to be both masculine and feminine sides of God. While most of us have emphasized the masculine side, they are looking more at the feminine side. Both sides are found in scriptures.

In similar ways, while Lutherans emphasize the graciousness of God, I've heard other preachers stress the judgment side of God. Both are found in scriptures.

Why do you (and others) assume that if female images are used for God, they must be worshiping a false god?
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

buechler

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2005, 10:19:34 AM »
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 There's plenty that could be done, but it wouldn't be pleasant for those seeking to do so.  In the synod where this congregation offers its ministry it would mean confronting a number of situations open to disciplinary process.  The office of the bishop would be left with answering the question, "Why this one and not that one?"  That leaves it up to local congregations to band together and file charges.  Not a fun time.  Trust me, it would get real nasty.

So it is doubtful anything will occur.  Just take a deep breath and understand that goddess worship is happening in a congregation wearing the same franchise label as yours.  

brian


Brian,

I certainly understand what you are saying. However, is there a time when congregations recognize that discipine will not happen, and therefore to be in communion with those who are involved in "idolatry" jeopardizes their own witness? If so, is there a time to leave and form something new, or perhaps join something that already exists (i.e. LCMS, AFLC, AALC, RC, etc)?

Has that time come now, or do we wait until later? When do we say that enough is enough, and being labled ELCA only hinders the ministry here?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Rob Buechler

Brian Hughes

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2005, 01:03:45 PM »
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Has that time come now, or do we wait until later? When do we say that enough is enough, and being labled ELCA only hinders the ministry here?


Rob,

Well, that's the question isn't it?  At this point there can be little doubt there are those who would just as soon see folks like you and me take our congregations and go away.  That would accomplish two goals: 1) remove effective evangelical congregations from the table and, 2) diminish this church as an agent of support for traditional marriage and morality in our culture.  We are well on our way with goal number two.  Ten years of homosexuality debate has all but killed off any expectation that this church can provide relevent  materials for strenghthen families as part of a national strategy.

Unless you understand these two dynamics, you really don't understand what this is all about in most mainline denominations.  At this point in the conflict it has *nothing* to do with the mission of the church.  It has everything to do with changing how our culture understands sexuality and marriage.

So what do we do Rob?  Do we stick it out a few more years, doing what we can to stop as much drift as possible?  Or is it time to go, recognizing the real mission of the church is bringing the Gospel to the lost.

Realistically, when the dissolution of the ELCA accelerates beyond it's current trickle of congregations walking away, I don't think it will have any impact on our members.  It will have a greater impact on the leadership: what about our pensions, what about accountability, what about the training of new and effective pastors, what about connections to expressions of the Lutheran church which show themselves to be likewise effective and faithful in this post-modern era?  Maybe what you're asking is whether now is the time to lower the lifeboats.  For me and my congregation; not yet.  OTHO, it would be foolish not to look for how you and your congregation will keep afloat as the water level continues its rising...

Brian

hansen

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 200
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2005, 11:48:14 AM »
Question:  would it be safe to say that the hermenutic which leads to being in favor of changing church policy on same-sex marriage/ordination, is the same hermenutic which leads to situations like what's going on at Ebenezer?  (hopefully I'm using the word "hermenutic" correctly).  And likewise, is it conceivable that such a hermenutic could be used to justify countless other deviations from what has always been understood as normative, orthodox, Christianity?

What I'm trying to get at, is to better understand where the revisionists are coming from.  And where they're heading to.

DH

buechler

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 200
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2005, 02:18:56 PM »
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Question:  would it be safe to say that the hermenutic which leads to being in favor of changing church policy on same-sex marriage/ordination, is the same hermenutic which leads to situations like what's going on at Ebenezer?  (hopefully I'm using the word "hermenutic" correctly).  And likewise, is it conceivable that such a hermenutic could be used to justify countless other deviations from what has always been understood as normative, orthodox, Christianity?

What I'm trying to get at, is to better understand where the revisionists are coming from.  And where they're heading to.

DH


Yes, I believe you have a good handle on that. Revisionist hermenutics can justify anything, no matter how truly unjustifiable they may be.

Peace and a blessed Resurrection Day!

Rob Buechler

hansen

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 200
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2005, 03:08:49 PM »
Thank you.  So, someone planing to "go there" should understand that there's a whole lot more at stake, than an individual issue or two or three.  It's truly opening the floodgates to a whole lotta 'stuff', most of which even they would be opposed to.

buechler

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 200
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2005, 07:45:06 PM »
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Thank you.  So, someone planing to "go there" should understand that there's a whole lot more at stake, than an individual issue or two or three.  It's truly opening the floodgates to a whole lotta 'stuff', most of which even they would be opposed to.


True. For example, those who wish to allow for homosexual marriage out of the hermenutic that "God is love, and love covers all" must allow also for incest, polygamy, polyamory, etc. Why? If love and commitment are the only criteria for romantic relationships, then what is to stop two siblings from marrying because they love one another and are committed to a life long relationship. Most proponents of homosexual marriage think incest is bad and wrong, but their hermenutic must lead to the conclusion that marriage must be given to incestuous couples as well as gay/lebian/bi-sexual ones.

This would be true for doctrines other than sex and marriage, but since that is a hot topic right now, it is the easiest one to discuss as an example.

Peace!
Rob Buechler

G.Edward

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2005, 07:53:45 PM »
You forgot about the man-boy and man-dog couples!

G.Edward

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2005, 07:54:57 PM »
And if you think I'm kidding, a google search will turn up cases already in the courts and in the news over the last couple of years.

buechler

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2005, 08:00:01 PM »
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And if you think I'm kidding, a google search will turn up cases already in the courts and in the news over the last couple of years.


YIKES! Come Lord Jesus SOON!

Rob Buechler

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2007, 11:53:57 AM »
Has that time come now, or do we wait until later? When do we say that enough is enough, and being labled ELCA only hinders the ministry here?

Rob Buechler

Ebenezer using the ELCA label opens us up for all kinds of ridicule, of course.  As long as we tolerate this narcissistic silliness, we probably deserve such ridicule.  Take for example the following article from Dr Mike Adams, who normally writes on attacks on free speech on college campuses.  I don't agree with much of what he says in this article, but since Ebenezer is an ELCA congregation it leads to this sort of mischaracterization of our denomination--in a national media forum, no less.  The article is titled My Conversion to the Lutheran Feminist Faith, and may be found at:

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/MikeSAdams/2007/04/30/my_conversion_to_the_lutheran_feminist_faith

Note: Even though I don't agree with much of the article, it did make me chuckle a few times! ;D

Peace,
Kurt
« Last Edit: May 01, 2007, 03:50:02 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
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Maryland Brian

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2) (March, 2005)
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2007, 12:42:41 PM »

Kurt,

  I do hope you are keeping your leadership informed about the coming "GoodSoil" memorials that will hit either your local synod assembly or the national one this summer.  Like TEC, we are about to get our own fair share of press, particularly if Vision and Expectations are changed this summer by a majority vote.  I'm assuming you lead your people through the sexuality study of 2004/2005, right?  You're feeling pretty good about the 2.5 million ELCA benevolence dollars that funded it, yes?  And then you'll feel great that the 2005 assembly vote really didn't mean anything, yes?

HerChurch.org, like I posted a couple of years ago now ... is a problem because the local bishop cannot discipline that congregation without taking on other discipline issues in his synod that he dare not touch...

Maryland Brian

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2) (March, 2005)
« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2007, 01:15:42 PM »
HerChurch.org, like I posted a couple of years ago now ... is a problem because the local bishop cannot discipline that congregation without taking on other discipline issues in his synod that he dare not touch...
Can you tell me what it costs a synod to go through the disciplinary process?

The only resolution submitted before the deadline at our synod assembly had two resolves, that were divided into two parts by a vote of the assembly: (1) that the ELCA disclose the cost of disciplinary hearings -- which passed; (2) that the ELCA be limited to spending $50,000 per year (inclluding gifts in kind) for disciplinary hearings -- this was defeated. Steve Sabin spoke against the spending limit because he said that it cost him a whole lot more than $50,000 to go through the whole ELCA disciplinary process.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Raising an Ebenezer (Part 2)  (March, 2005)
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2007, 01:33:16 PM »
Maryland Brian,
Alas, I am no clergyman but a lowly layman toiling away in the halls of academia.  :'(  At our small congregation in San Antonio, we do what we can to keep some of the national foolishness to a minimum, and embrace that which is still good (Lutheran World Relief, Lutheran Social Services, Outdoor Ministry).  In the Southwest Texas Synod, we were blindsided several years ago by LC/NA, and are now branded a "Reconciling in Christ" synod.   However, since then pewsitters such as I have been attending assemblies to shoot down these types of proposals.  Our numbers are diluted somewhat now that several large congregations in our synod have withdrawn to join the LCMC, so I fear what future SWT assemblies may bring.  I agree that after the 2007 churchwide assembly, we will have some of the same issues and press that TEC has been enjoying.

Kurt
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough