Author Topic: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?  (Read 36622 times)

James_Gale

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #630 on: November 10, 2016, 11:52:01 AM »
The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate.

Mandate: the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

To paraphrase Barack Obama, "Elections have consequences. We won." We saw what he did. Hopefully, Trump and Congress will dismantle much of it, beginning with Obamacare. There is a mandate to do so.

The "Improved ACA" will probably be balanced. Likley it will not be a complete repeal nor what extreme voices would prefer.

Peace, JOHN


What is the "extreme-voices" position?  Republicans tend to support using the tax system to enable lower-income people to buy health insurance.  They tend not to favor the market-killing approach of the ACA.  They tend not to favor mandates (which aren't working anyway). 


My prediction, which may or may not comport with your notion of "balanced," is that Congress will permit insurance companies to compete across state lines.  I suspect that Congress will loosen coverage requirements, enabling insurers to offer a broader array of options.  I am all but certain that Congress will keep protections for those with pre-existing conditions.  The exchanges might survive in some form, but only as a tool that consumers might or might not use.


In general, Republicans favor health-care/health-insurance reform.  They support ensuring coverage for lower-income people.  They simply believe that movement toward centralized control would be counter-productive.  And they've proved right, as Obamacare exchanges are collapsing in a vicious cycle of higher premiums, which lead to fewer enrollees, which in turn leads to still higher premiums.  (I am down to one choice in insurers.  And my premium for 2017 is going up $195 per month for basically the same high-deductible policy I have now.)


The Republican proposal will continue protections for the poor while exposing the insurance business to free-market dynamics.

Harry Edmon

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #631 on: November 10, 2016, 11:57:19 AM »
Interesting and informative article on the democratic nature of our electoral system:
http://www.taraross.com/2016/09/electoral-college-myth-3-the-electoral-college-is-undemocratic/
Note that states are free to choose their electors in whatever way that is authorized by that state legislature.   You do not have to have a "winner takes all" system in a state.   Maine and Nebraska choose some of their electors based on who wins the vote in each congregational district.   I think it is still the case that a state legislature could even choose the electors themselves with no popular vote by the people of that state.   However I seriously doubt any state legislature would choose to do so - they would be out of office so fast your head would spin.
Harry Edmon, Ph.D., LCMS Layman

pearson

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #632 on: November 10, 2016, 12:05:57 PM »

And why, if someone has a genuine vocation, would we want term limits?


The term limits question aside, I would be very hard pressed to explain to my students how a political career in the modern nation-state could be considered a "genuine vocation."

Tom Pearson

Matt Hummel

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #633 on: November 10, 2016, 12:12:51 PM »

And why, if someone has a genuine vocation, would we want term limits?


The term limits question aside, I would be very hard pressed to explain to my students how a political career in the modern nation-state could be considered a "genuine vocation."

Tom Pearson

I gave had the privilege to know individuals who managed to serve God and the common good by their service in the legislative or executive branches of government. How quick Lutherans are to forget vocational talk. Or even the 8th Commandment.
Matt Hummel


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pearson

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #634 on: November 10, 2016, 12:31:49 PM »

I gave had the privilege to know individuals who managed to serve God and the common good by their service in the legislative or executive branches of government.


Me, too.  But the ones I've known have served God and the common good in government in their vocations as accountants or engineers or educators or librarians.  The executive and legislative branches of government are populated (for the most part) by elected politicians.  In and of itself, "politician" is not a vocation, by any set of criteria that I'm aware of.
 

How quick Lutherans are to forget vocational talk. Or even the 8th Commandment.


And how quick many Americans are to forget that "career" and "vocation" are not synonymous terms.

Tom Pearson

John_Hannah

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #635 on: November 10, 2016, 12:54:03 PM »
The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate.

Mandate: the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

To paraphrase Barack Obama, "Elections have consequences. We won." We saw what he did. Hopefully, Trump and Congress will dismantle much of it, beginning with Obamacare. There is a mandate to do so.

The "Improved ACA" will probably be balanced. Likley it will not be a complete repeal nor what extreme voices would prefer.

Peace, JOHN


What is the "extreme-voices" position?  Republicans tend to support using the tax system to enable lower-income people to buy health insurance.  They tend not to favor the market-killing approach of the ACA.  They tend not to favor mandates (which aren't working anyway). 


My prediction, which may or may not comport with your notion of "balanced," is that Congress will permit insurance companies to compete across state lines.  I suspect that Congress will loosen coverage requirements, enabling insurers to offer a broader array of options.  I am all but certain that Congress will keep protections for those with pre-existing conditions.  The exchanges might survive in some form, but only as a tool that consumers might or might not use.


In general, Republicans favor health-care/health-insurance reform.  They support ensuring coverage for lower-income people.  They simply believe that movement toward centralized control would be counter-productive.  And they've proved right, as Obamacare exchanges are collapsing in a vicious cycle of higher premiums, which lead to fewer enrollees, which in turn leads to still higher premiums.  (I am down to one choice in insurers.  And my premium for 2017 is going up $195 per month for basically the same high-deductible policy I have now.)


The Republican proposal will continue protections for the poor while exposing the insurance business to free-market dynamics.

None of that is extreme, in my opinion.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

DCharlton

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #636 on: November 10, 2016, 12:58:58 PM »

And why, if someone has a genuine vocation, would we want term limits?


The term limits question aside, I would be very hard pressed to explain to my students how a political career in the modern nation-state could be considered a "genuine vocation."

Tom Pearson

Hold on a second.  When I suggested a few months ago that some "vocations" were not genuine you rejected that notion quite vehemently.   
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #637 on: November 10, 2016, 01:03:15 PM »

I find some appeal to term limits. 

See how term limits have, uh, worked in California.

Perhaps an easier way would be to discontinue giving pensions to elective-office holders.

Pax, Steven+
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 01:30:21 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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James_Gale

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #638 on: November 10, 2016, 01:06:30 PM »

I find some appeal to term limits. 

See how term limits have, uh, worked in California.

Perhaps an easier way would be to discontinue giving pensions to elective-office holders.

Pax, Steven+
[/quote]

A great idea! 

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #639 on: November 10, 2016, 01:36:53 PM »
]
If this bothers some people about the electoral college, then they must certainly be bothered by the United States Senate.  It's just not fair that Wyoming has the same number of votes as California!  The one clause of the Constitution that can never be amended is the one defining representation in the Senate.  Of course some people also think any clause of the document is up for grabs, if you find the right-thinking judge.

Well, the Supreme Court did it with state legislatures in the '60s.  Until Reynolds v. Sims, no County had more than one State Senator.

Pax, Steven+
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #640 on: November 10, 2016, 01:43:55 PM »
Rule of thumb for mandates: If my party wins the office (executive branch) or the majority (legislative) no matter how slim the majority then my party has a definite mandate to carry out our platform, programs and policies.  If my party looses the office or ends up in the minority then the opposition has received no mandate but to act cooperatively.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
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pearson

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #641 on: November 10, 2016, 02:47:36 PM »

Hold on a second.  When I suggested a few months ago that some "vocations" were not genuine you rejected that notion quite vehemently.   


I did?  Huh.  I wonder what I meant.  I'm an old man, and I don't immediately recall that conversation, or the context of the conversation.  I will say that I've always thought some "vocations" are not vocations at all, and "politician" (in the modern American sense) is one of them.

Tom Pearson

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #642 on: November 10, 2016, 04:16:51 PM »
OK I will buy into the fact that getting rid of the electoral college would cut out more rural, less urban areas, but having the system does away from the what the majority of the people want... and thus the rural areas have more power...
Harvey S. Mozolak
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Dave Likeness

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #643 on: November 10, 2016, 04:19:24 PM »
Donald Trump as President has the opportunity to prove his critics wrong.   Hopefully, he can become
a good President as he serves our nation. His biggest blessing is that he is not a career politician.   The
citizens of America deserve someone who will honor the U.S. Constitution and remember that we have
3 equal branches of government: Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.  The Imperial Presidency of Obama
is about to end.  He had no regard for Congress or the Supreme Court.  He ruled by executive order
and had a distaste for building relationships with his own Democrat party.

Richard Johnson

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #644 on: November 10, 2016, 04:20:26 PM »
]
If this bothers some people about the electoral college, then they must certainly be bothered by the United States Senate.  It's just not fair that Wyoming has the same number of votes as California!  The one clause of the Constitution that can never be amended is the one defining representation in the Senate.  Of course some people also think any clause of the document is up for grabs, if you find the right-thinking judge.

Well, the Supreme Court did it with state legislatures in the '60s.  Until Reynolds v. Sims, no County had more than one State Senator.

Pax, Steven+

That was true in California, but I'm not sure it was true everywhere. But the underlying presupposition there was that the relationship of counties to state is quite unlike that of states to federal government. (Whether that's adequate justification for the court decision is another question, but it does seem to me that the two situations are quite dissimilar.)
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS