Author Topic: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?  (Read 36621 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #615 on: November 10, 2016, 09:29:03 AM »
As soon as we can establish term limits for members of Congress and Senators, we should abolish the electoral college.

And as Prof Larry Sabato stated, "That will happen on the twelfth of never."
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 11:17:43 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #616 on: November 10, 2016, 09:45:20 AM »
I think that it would be a mistake to abolish the electoral college, and not just because Trump won.  Our founding fathers understood that we are a federation of states, with each state having equal representation.  Abolishing the EC would effectively reduce elections simply to a vote count in heavily populated urban areas - hardly representative of the country as a whole.
Not only would it do that, it would mean that no city or population area smaller than Sacramento would ever be visited by a national politician, and pretty much every policy would be for the sake of the huddled masses in the cities. Not a good way to run a country, unless you want to end up with the loony economy of the Hunger Games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k

I don't think either of these quotes are entirely accurate.  From the video above, you wouldn't be able to win a presidency from trying to jet to some urban areas even without the electoral college. 
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John_Hannah

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #617 on: November 10, 2016, 09:49:09 AM »
Now that the excitement has died down I just now noticed that, in spite of Clinton's loss, the Democrats gained seats in both houses of congress. Evidence that we are actually acting as the balanced citizens our fathers planned when they devised the Constitution.  The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate. In eight years we will switch again.

Peace, JOHN
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #618 on: November 10, 2016, 09:52:52 AM »
The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate.

Mandate: the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

To paraphrase Barack Obama, "Elections have consequences. We won." We saw what he did. Hopefully, Trump and Congress will dismantle much of it, beginning with Obamacare. There is a mandate to do so.
Don Kirchner

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James_Gale

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #619 on: November 10, 2016, 10:26:37 AM »
As soon as we can establish term limits for members of Congress and Senators, we should abolish the electoral college.


I find some appeal to term limits.  I go back and forth on the issue.  It doesn't much matter, though.  Term limits would require a Constitutional amendment, meaning that a super-majority in Congress and a super-majority of states would have to agree.  I don't see it happening.


The electoral college is not going away either.  It is a hallmark of federalism.  Abolishing it would transform (complete the transformation of?) of our country into a unitary state.  That is not what our founders envisioned.  The states as states are sovereign and within a federalist system are entitled to a voice in the outcome.


There's a huge practical concern, too, with abolishing the electoral college.  If the national popular vote were very close, how would we resolve all counting disputes.  It would be exponentially more difficult than Florida in 2000.  There, we were dealing with one state and one voting law (although each county in Florida has substantial autonomy in administering the system).  A nationwide recount would involve 51 jurisdictions, each with its own laws.  Indeed, the differences in voting laws might well raise due process concerns of the sort that caused 7 justices in Bush v. Gore to overturn rulings below under which different Florida counties would have ended up counting ballots using different criteria.  What does this mean?  If we did away with the electoral college, we'd likely need to nationalize election law and election management.  But for those who want the march toward a unitary system to continue, this might be viewed as a feature and not a bug.




Dave Likeness

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #620 on: November 10, 2016, 10:32:04 AM »
To abolish the Electoral College would give states like New York and California the power to elect
our President.  The Founding Fathers could never have anticipated the population totals of the
21st Century.  Yet their wisdom allows the Electoral College to give a balanced voice to every voter.

Dave Likeness

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #621 on: November 10, 2016, 10:52:55 AM »
Yesterday, Professor Larry Sabato from the University of Virginia  said that all the pundits failed
in their predictions of Hillary Clinton victory.  Personally, he said, "I do not have egg on my face,
I have an omelet on my face."

Kobalos

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #622 on: November 10, 2016, 10:55:57 AM »


If the electoral college were done away with, it would be for all practical purposes the disenfranchising of rural America....the part of America that traditionally pays the bills for all the good things that urban America enjoys. Campaigns and programs would be focused almost entirely on large urban centers. Rome fell when the rural regions that paid the bills for the bread and circuses no longer felt it was worth the effort to pay those bills. Urban America has been living off of the generosity of rural America for far too long. This is a backlash in part.


Lou

I humbly suggest it's deeper than that.  The founders knew in their bones the reality of feudalism and landed gentry and the role of the local prince and lord.  They designed a system precisely to avoid that, to prevent large population areas from dictating the life of serfs who work the land with bovine poop between their toes and provide the foodstuffs needed for the leisure class in the big cities.

That's a conflict as old as the Old Testament.  And as you suggest, the serfs revolted.  But it's also, as others have shared, a story of small manufacturers whose parts production fed into larger systems of industry.  Those jobs continue to leave, devastating local economies.  Bernie caught the attention of a young educated population who saw the system was rigged against them to achieve the American Dream.  The DNC insured he couldn't take it on the road.  Trump found a way past his own party and tapped into the same feelings, but a different demographic.

The brilliance of our Republic's documents is still amazing.  IMHO.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #623 on: November 10, 2016, 11:00:07 AM »
is the electoral college
a quota system?

Yes. It favors the less populated states over the more populated ones.

California: 692,955 people per Elector.
Wyoming: 194,219 people per Elector.

Kurt Strause
If this bothers some people about the electoral college, then they must certainly be bothered by the United States Senate.  It's just not fair that Wyoming has the same number of votes as California!  The one clause of the Constitution that can never be amended is the one defining representation in the Senate.  Of course some people also think any clause of the document is up for grabs, if you find the right-thinking judge.

It's clear that such representative disparities are acceptable in our framework of government.  The Founders were quite clear about these things, wanting to diffuse governing power as much as possible to let consensus build and avoid mob rule (like we are seeing now in big city streets).  But for people who think that the federal Department of Education has the authority to regulate the bathroom usage of any state's schools, such trifles probably don't matter.

Sterling Spatz

Addendum:  The Founders experienced the dangers of mobs up close, with the Congress under the Articles of Confederation having been driven out of Philadelphia by political-stoked civil unrest at one point...how the capital under the new Constitution ended up in New York and not Philadelphia.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 11:23:12 AM by MaddogLutheran »
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John_Hannah

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #624 on: November 10, 2016, 11:03:32 AM »
The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate.

Mandate: the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

To paraphrase Barack Obama, "Elections have consequences. We won." We saw what he did. Hopefully, Trump and Congress will dismantle much of it, beginning with Obamacare. There is a mandate to do so.

The "Improved ACA" will probably be balanced. Likley it will not be a complete repeal nor what extreme voices would prefer.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Matt Hummel

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #625 on: November 10, 2016, 11:06:47 AM »
As soon as we can establish term limits for members of Congress and Senators, we should abolish the electoral college.

What logical reason is there for disestablishing an integral part of the Constitution? And why, if someone has a genuine vocation, would we want term limits? They exist anyway. They are called elections.
Matt Hummel


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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #626 on: November 10, 2016, 11:08:44 AM »
The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate.

Mandate: the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

To paraphrase Barack Obama, "Elections have consequences. We won." We saw what he did. Hopefully, Trump and Congress will dismantle much of it, beginning with Obamacare. There is a mandate to do so.

The "Improved ACA" will probably be balanced. Likley it will not be a complete repeal nor what extreme voices would prefer.

Peace, JOHN
Perhaps, if what happens now is what should have happened in the first place:  building a bipartisan consensus with opposition party buy-in.  Is it really so surprising that Obama's "signature" achievement faces dismantlement given it was passed with ZERO Republican votes, and is now failing to delivery on its promises?  If President Trump were to do such a thing, imagine the outcry.  But we dare not criticize the Anointed One for his egotistical hubris...only The Donald is an egomanicac.  [/sarcasm]  This was all so entirely predicable, some of us even predicted it.  And were called racist for our prescience.

What goes around comes around.  Or as my yoga teaching wife observed this morning...karma.

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D. Engebretson

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #627 on: November 10, 2016, 11:12:17 AM »
Interesting and informative article on the democratic nature of our electoral system:
http://www.taraross.com/2016/09/electoral-college-myth-3-the-electoral-college-is-undemocratic/
Pastor Don Engebretson
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Kobalos

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #628 on: November 10, 2016, 11:36:57 AM »

What logical reason is there for disestablishing an integral part of the Constitution? And why, if someone has a genuine vocation, would we want term limits? They exist anyway. They are called elections.

Despots don't trust the common man.  It's an old arrogance.

James_Gale

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Re: Any Trump supporters inclined to reconsider?
« Reply #629 on: November 10, 2016, 11:37:24 AM »
Now that the excitement has died down I just now noticed that, in spite of Clinton's loss, the Democrats gained seats in both houses of congress. Evidence that we are actually acting as the balanced citizens our fathers planned when they devised the Constitution.  The presidential vote was a surprise (or "upset") but hardly a mandate. In eight years we will switch again.

Peace, JOHN


To argue whether the Republicans won a "mandate" quickly devolves into a word game.  The losing party typically argues that the winners don't have a mandate, or at least not much of one, and that the majority should operate on the basis of consensus and compromise.  The Republicans made this kind of argument with President Obama and the Democrats who ran Congress from 2009-2011.  The Democrats chose to push as far to the left as they could, particularly with Obamacare.  This cost them dearly at the polls in 2010, ushering in a House majority and leaving the Democrats with just 51 senators (down from 59/60).


This year, the Republicans lost 5 or 6 seats in the House.  Given the Republican wave in 2014 and the court-ordered redistricting in Florida, which favored the Democrats, this was a remarkably strong result for the Republicans.  On the Senate side, the wave class of 2010 was up for re-election.  This meant that the Republicans were defending 24 seats and the Democrats just 10.  Many of the Republicans came from states that either lean Democratic in national elections or are swing states (e.g., Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Florida, Ohio).  Even so, the Republicans lost just two seats--Mark Kirk from Illinois (a very blue state) and Kelly Ayotte from New Hampshire, who lost by 0.1% of the vote.  A few months back, experts gave the GOP little chance of retaining the Senate.  The Republicans far outperformed expectations.  Assuming that John Kennedy wins the Louisiana runoff next month--a good bet--the GOP will hold a 52-48 edge in the Senate.  (The GOP majority may grow a bit.  Rumors abound that Joe Manchin (and maybe other red-state Democrats) may cross the aisle to caucus with the Republicans.) 


Do the Republicans have a mandate?  I don't know.  They hold office.  By any objective measure, they had a very good night in national, state, and local elections across the country.  Each elected official has an obligation to act on conscience, consistent with campaign promises, and for the good of the country. 


And you're right that at some point (2/4/8? years) the Republicans will wear out their welcome and the Democrats will be back in office.  The Republicans are likely now to follow the example of President Obama and nearly all his predecessors, pressing their political advantage while they have it.