Author Topic: Liturgical oddity  (Read 2940 times)

Charles Austin

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2019, 10:00:28 AM »
When lay people take the sacrament to the sick or shut ins, they are functioning in the same way as the lay assistants who distribute on Sunday morning. The attendant rituals make that clear.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Timothy Schenks

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2019, 04:23:38 AM »
I remember the pastor of a large congregation had resigned and the then-District President licensed the vicar (seminarian intern) to administer Holy Communion, which was odd considering there were ten other sister congregations within a short distance where the members could have taken Communion during the vacancy.

The vicar was called to be that congregationís pastor. They then brought in a new vicar the next term for the new pastor to train.  :o
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 06:01:20 AM by Timothy Schenks »
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Charles Austin

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2019, 09:26:20 AM »
So a vicar/intern is assigned to a congregation where the Pastor has less than one year of experience? Now thereís a brilliant idea. Not.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Article coming up in Lutheran Forum journal. Now would be a good time to subscribe.
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Dave Benke

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2019, 05:14:31 PM »
The rubric for supervision used to be at four to five years for what are now called "General" pastors.  No vicars until you've served four or five years.  That's in the Missouri Synod, of course; can't speak to anybody else's denomination.  It was a good rubric.  I suppose there were cases where it got waived. 

The weirder (to me and I think many) is that the SMP-trained pastor is NOT deemed a "General" pastor, so is always to be under supervision, and therefore cannot be a supervisor, being eternally (unless more course work/certification/degrees are appended) a supervisee.  The DELTO curriculum - the predecessor in the LCMS to the SMP program - was virtually the same, but took longer and did not have the early ordination followed by studies afterward.  This is really not helpful to the pastors in the field who went through the SMP, are fit and suited to supervise, but are not allowed to by the new rubric.  Even more weird is that the SMP-trained ordained and called worker is allowed to vote at District Conventions, but not at the national level.   

I know that guys like SW and me, well - we did it the real way.   I and guys like John Hannah (to some degree) and others now at the senior level were formed at the maximum possible level - four years of high school, two years of junior college, two years of senior college and three years plus vicarage at seminary - all that time spent in curricula designed to lead to ordination.  Linguistically superior, what with the Greek, the Hebrew, the Aramaic, the Latin, the German, the (for me) Ugaritic and Akkadian.  Are/have we been better pastors, better theologians, better curers of souls?  I don't know - all the languages were really useful in learning Spanish.  As someone put it at the recent mentor training - we may have had an excess of cabeza and a deficit of corazon.

My sense of Lutheran formation is different from what the LCMS is doing with all these subsidiary rubrics:
For the baptized -
Level one confessional subscription is confirmation - subscribed to the level of Luther's Small Catechism and scripture.
Level two confessional subscription is the diaconate - subscribed to the level of Luther's Large Catechism and Scripture.   These workers can and should be rostered and commissioned both male and female and with some congruent level of course work and local training.  This would include those who are commissioned rostered teachers (in the Missouri Synod).
Level three confessional subscription is the first two levels plus the Augsburg Confession and Scripture.  These workers would be ordained.  They can teach and form those at the deacon and confirmand level.
Level four confessional subscription is to the entirety of the Confessions plus Scripture.  These workers are ordained and can teach and form those at any of the first three levels.
Each level of training includes more depth exploration of Scripture, and more formation experience in personal spiritual discipline, on-job training and the like.
One area I'd personally like to see go up the chart is church history - that would include more as you go along about the history of the Church through the ages, and provide more interaction with other Christian traditions.

Dave Benke

Richard Johnson

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2019, 04:15:00 PM »

One area I'd personally like to see go up the chart is church history - that would include more as you go along about the history of the Church through the ages, and provide more interaction with other Christian traditions.

Dave Benke

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John_Hannah

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2019, 07:43:01 AM »

One area I'd personally like to see go up the chart is church history - that would include more as you go along about the history of the Church through the ages, and provide more interaction with other Christian traditions.

Dave Benke

AMEN!

You bet!
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Liturgical oddity
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2020, 02:51:38 PM »

One area I'd personally like to see go up the chart is church history - that would include more as you go along about the history of the Church through the ages, and provide more interaction with other Christian traditions.

Dave Benke
AMEN!

You bet!

During my brief sojourn with the Anglican Church in North America a few of us got together at Ambridge to meet with ++Duncan at Trinity School for Ministry.

No person, place, or thing has a second chance at first impressions.

Our first impression in the twilight of early November was of a timeline mural along the library wall complete with lifesize figures beginning with Christ and the Apostles; Patrick, Cuthbert, and Aiden...then on to Luther, Calvin, and Cranmer.

"Church history and tradition honored here"  me thinks.

The library was deserted.

Because it was the hour of Vespers and almost all of the student body had gone to the chapel to pray.

"Tradition LIVES here!"

An excellent first impression.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 02:55:00 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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Served as a Lutheran Pastor October 31, 1989 - October 31, 2014.
Charter member of the first chapter of the Society of the Holy Trinity.

Chrismated Antiochian Orthodox, eve of Mary of Egypt Sunday, A.D. 2015