Author Topic: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry  (Read 4265 times)

Mark Brown

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2016, 12:19:26 PM »
Orders of the day brings an end to the debate and 71% of the convention decides we are ready to vote...

Motion carries with almost 75%. We now have another new route toward the pastoral office and an end to the licensing of lay deacons.

So, am I reading this correct, this vote wasn't even close or contentious?

Also, is it really a new route, or just a specified used of current routes (SMP, Colloquy) for a specified role now ended?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this would allow the DP of the NOW to specify a colloquy for the currently LLD serving the vast spaces of Alaska.  The net result is probably something along the lines of ordaining people serving Alaska without much fuss while requiring something more in terms of education for the lower 48.  And the most radical step would simply be that every DP with LLDs decides to do a simply colloquy and ordains them all i.e. the Piepkorn option.

The vote was not close. I don't fully understand the way this will be implemented (which should surprise no one who has been following along for the last couple of days). This is an attempt at a theological solution to practical problems.

FWIW - I think the high passage rate of this resolution is indicative of what can happen when the church takes the time to work through issues. Larry Vogel did a phenomenal job with his tour of synod meeting with churches and districts and deacons. The floor committee was receptive to hearing and enshrining the concerns of stakeholders. Whether one agrees with this or not - the way this issue was handled over the last couple years is a model of Koinonia.

I'd agree that they are practical problems.  And practical problems are best met usually by muddling through and what nobody wants to hear right now trusting the one-off decisions of leaders (i.e. when a DP just ordains a member of a small remote congregation).  But it really isn't a theological solution.  The theological solution for the practical problem was Wichita creating a previously unknown category of neither fish nor fowl.  This just restores the theology and points at more appropriate practical solutions. 

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2016, 08:01:26 PM »
Can anyone tell me what this means in practical terms. We can respond in TAALC, but I'm wondering how LCMS now specifically responds where ...

Where a small group of believers gather in the Lost Creek wilderness area of Colorado from their hideaway cabins. They don't have much money, and likely never will. They ask the RM DP "Please send us a pastor. We might be able to pay for his travel and perhaps a few dollars stipend."

What will the RM DP do? He used to find a worker priest district deacon and supervised him as he took studies as much as his schedule allowed. What does the DP do now? Enroll someone in sem, and 4 years later send a young man and his family and student loans to a $400 / mo job? Enroll one called in SMP? Call a circuit rider for the entire qzillion square mile Rocky Mountains? Ordain when and ... ?

Just curious since I will have to work with these folks.

Thanks,
TV
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 08:09:48 PM by Timotheus Verinus »
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Dave Likeness

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2016, 12:16:12 AM »
I would think the Rocky Mountain District would see this as an opportunity
for mission outreach.   Therefore they would provide a retired pastor to
conduct the Sunday Worship.  Most Districts budget for mission outreach
and this would mean the retired pastor would be paid mileage and a decent
stipend for preaching and teaching on Sunday morning.  Obviously, the
District would be responsible to pay the rent for the place to worship.

Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2016, 01:39:56 AM »
I would think the Rocky Mountain District would see this as an opportunity
for mission outreach.   ...  Therefore they would provide a retired pastor ...
Thank you for your answer.

I would think ... and thought ... that also, and when I went to district offices over 15 years ago and again 10 years ago, and asked a simple question .. "what can you do?" It ended up being ... "We'll get back to you... don't have an answer for that right now." And in truth, they really didn't have an answer, because the things we "would think," weren't doable many times in many circumstances. In the circumstances I used there will never be anything but that $400/month for any imaginable future. It's a multi decade ministry, best handled by another congregation, within 100 miles. It wasn't that the district president was thinking wrong. No it was a great thought, and had numerous examples of working very well, however - The exceptional happens regularly and persistently. That will never change.

On the good news front. Demographics being what they are, boomers should provide many more retired pastors than in the past. So it's a good time to take this path for a while, I guess ...

But that clock ticks too. And at 65 I sort of, really would like to retire before I'm in my 80's. My daughter's 85 year old father-in-law, does great filling in, but back to back to back is a struggle for him. There are also many other ministries that retired pastors can make a huge impact on, other than full time 52 week congregational ministry. There is a price paid when they are pulled from those unique missions and ministries.

So basically? I should forget about retiring? ... and pray that when I try to, I (or I guess my wife) can still drive safely for 3-4 hours on snowy mountain roads in ten years and beyond... That's dicey because one of my faithful TAALC pulpit fill ins, can no longer drive the 40 minutes to fill in for my vacations, and someone has to drive an hour and 20 minutes plus load up time, to pick him up.

I honestly think folks back east are clueless on how big the Western US (including Alaska) is. - (here's a clue. From New York to St Louis is 950 miles. I drive that distance out west, usually in one day, with tourist stops. That's "back east" distances. From St Louis to San Francisco is 2057 miles. You can't drive that in a day, even if you never stop for gas, and today you'll still lose cell coverage in Utah. That's being in the west.)

Just looking at reality ... and putting names and faces to decisions being made.
So on a purely selfish level, my list of retired LCMS vacation fill-in pastors just got shorter? Am I reading that right?  ::) ;)

TV
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 02:00:35 AM by Timotheus Verinus »
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Timotheus Verinus

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2016, 02:17:03 AM »
... There are also many other ministries that retired pastors can make a huge impact on, other than full time 52 week congregational ministry. There is a price paid when they are pulled from those unique missions and ministries.
....

TV

And
From another thread.

On topic,

I happen to have an LCMS relative serving a long term sentence in a prison in the Midwest. While in prison he has become dedicated to studying the Lutheran faith he was confirmed in. However, ...

If someone is aware of an organized prison ministry in the LCMS, other than those that might be in place for specific prisons (since I know there is not for this specific prison) and can direct me to it, that would be appreciated.

The Southern Illinois District (SID) has the model program. They might provide some insight. Can I ask what state? I know a few chaplains/prison ministers. But other than SID you are right. There really aren't any organized programs I'm aware of. Chat with the SID and then the DP in that area and see if they can come up with an answer. Be a part of the solution. :)

TV

If I could retire, my wife and I might give a try at starting something in nationwide prison ministry working with the SID ... but it looks like I might be driving in snow to the outback for the next 20 years.  ;D ;D

Only partly joking,
TV
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 02:24:02 AM by Timotheus Verinus »
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Dave Benke

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2016, 08:17:58 AM »
Orders of the day brings an end to the debate and 71% of the convention decides we are ready to vote...

Motion carries with almost 75%. We now have another new route toward the pastoral office and an end to the licensing of lay deacons.

So, am I reading this correct, this vote wasn't even close or contentious?

Also, is it really a new route, or just a specified used of current routes (SMP, Colloquy) for a specified role now ended?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this would allow the DP of the NOW to specify a colloquy for the currently LLD serving the vast spaces of Alaska.  The net result is probably something along the lines of ordaining people serving Alaska without much fuss while requiring something more in terms of education for the lower 48.  And the most radical step would simply be that every DP with LLDs decides to do a simply colloquy and ordains them all i.e. the Piepkorn option.

The vote was not close. I don't fully understand the way this will be implemented (which should surprise no one who has been following along for the last couple of days). This is an attempt at a theological solution to practical problems.

FWIW - I think the high passage rate of this resolution is indicative of what can happen when the church takes the time to work through issues. Larry Vogel did a phenomenal job with his tour of synod meeting with churches and districts and deacons. The floor committee was receptive to hearing and enshrining the concerns of stakeholders. Whether one agrees with this or not - the way this issue was handled over the last couple years is a model of Koinonia.

Yes to this comment.  Time was taken.  And that is the essential difference from the Ecclesiastical Supervision section.  Time was not taken.  Larry Peters' references to the two month period of time available to whoever wanted to look in for a relatively wholesale revamp of Ecclesiastical Supervision were telling to me.  Larry Vogel toured the country when it came to routes to ministry.  And that's why the movement to put the ecclesiastical supervision core resolution back into a dialogical process is appropriate.

Dave Benke

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Re: Floor Committee 13 - Routes to Ministry - Wednsesday Update
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2016, 04:48:59 PM »
Floor Committee brings up 13-04B
This is in response to COP Chairman who wondered why the bylaw revision would allow for a colloquy candidate to apply for colloquy directly with the committee and not go through the district president of the district where the candidate is colloquizing.

The intent of the resolution was not to remove the District president from the process.

Voice vote on the motion.

13-05 to decline 13-48 to Bring an End to Licensed Lay Deacon Programs is no longer needed with the passage of 13-02

Larry Voegel and the crew that worked on the Lay Deacon Task Force that did such good work in listening and crafting a reasonable consensus on this. This is what Koinonia can look like...