Author Topic: An Exception to the Rule  (Read 15393 times)

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #345 on: July 08, 2016, 03:07:30 AM »
Father Steven, it sounds, ...


Diego, in the words of Francis Urquhart, "You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

Pax, Steven+
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Diego

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #346 on: July 08, 2016, 03:16:51 AM »
Father Steven, it sounds, ...


Diego, in the words of Francis Urquhart, "You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

Pax, Steven+

And perhaps that says more than it was intended to say...

Charles Austin

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #347 on: July 08, 2016, 04:04:45 AM »
You might not realize that it pains me to post this, but it does.
1. If, for reasons of your own (those reasons being deeply-seated in your psyche, or perhaps hot-branded into your sense of who you are, or maybe defenses against facing things you are unable to face, or brought on by some quirk of biology), you choose to "believe" things that are not true, at this point I will simply not try to offer you counsel and correction. Believe that the moon is made of green cheese, if you wish; or that vigorous applause at the end of a performance of "Peter Pan" actually saves the life of a fairy friend; I will not try to change your mind, but will lament your inability to grasp reality.
2. This resentment-flavored re-hash of events at ELCA assemblies a decade or more ago is sadly beginning to sound like the obsession some in the LCMS have with a Yankee Stadium event that followed the attacks of 9/11. I do not want to contribute to this unhealthy mania, so I will not comment.
3. The loudest voices here, the voices that continually condemn the church body in which I am called to serve the Gospel as a pastor, do not represent the future of the ELCA or my ministry in it. And while they rage and fume in this forum, they are not having an effect on the broader mission of the ELCA, so I must make a serious attempt to ignore them.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns couldíve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

Fletch

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #348 on: July 08, 2016, 06:56:25 AM »
Last time I checked, LCMS was not Young Earth Creationist. Literalist, yes. But not Young Earth Creationist. Even I am literalist. But one thing I learned from the Rabbis was the following. The Earth was made BEFORE the Sun and the Moon and the Stars also. YOU CAN'T HAVE 24 HOUR DAYS WITHOUT THE SUN!

I accept that the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Days were 24 hours in length. But the First, Second, and Third could have been of any length. I am not sure where ELS is on that. Their Statement of Belief is the one I more or less accept, but I reserve for myself the right to differ from it if I so need to in certain aspects.

As far as the Light that shined on the Earth before the Sun was made, the Rabbis teach that it was shining forth from the Glory of the Throne of God. Obviously they weren't referring to a literal chair, but rather, simply the Glory of God. This is not in Scripture, but it makes as much sense as any other explanation.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

... Fletch

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #349 on: July 08, 2016, 07:35:32 AM »
YOU CAN'T HAVE 24 HOUR DAYS WITHOUT THE SUN!

Huh?
Don Kirchner

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Diego

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #350 on: July 08, 2016, 08:48:49 AM »
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

... Fletch

Very interesting point!

SomeoneWrites

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #351 on: July 08, 2016, 09:16:29 AM »

Last time I checked, LCMS was not Young Earth Creationist. Literalist, yes. But not Young Earth Creationist.

Correct.  The way the theology works out seems to be YEC or Omphalist.  Neither any church I've been to or at Sem was their any indication that humans were walking around on an Earth 25,000 literal years ago. 

Even I am literalist. But one thing I learned from the Rabbis was the following. The Earth was made BEFORE the Sun and the Moon and the Stars also. YOU CAN'T HAVE 24 HOUR DAYS WITHOUT THE SUN!

While I like the "God is light" quote, this was never an issue for me because God can have 24 hour days whenever he wants. 

I accept that the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Days were 24 hours in length. But the First, Second, and Third could have been of any length. I am not sure where ELS is on that. Their Statement of Belief is the one I more or less accept, but I reserve for myself the right to differ from it if I so need to in certain aspects.

You are definitely welcome to dissent from the ELS or LCMS on those issues of doctrine.  The ELS appears functionally identical to the LCMS in that regard.  http://els.org/beliefs/we-believe-teach-and-confess/

http://els.org/beliefs/we-believe-teach-and-confess/
As far as the Light that shined on the Earth before the Sun was made, the Rabbis teach that it was shining forth from the Glory of the Throne of God. Obviously they weren't referring to a literal chair, but rather, simply the Glory of God. This is not in Scripture, but it makes as much sense as any other explanation.
[/quote]

Yes.  And with what Fletch said.  This understanding of God and light has been around in Christianity and Judaism.  I don't think either group has ever denied that God is light, though I think there have been periods in both Judaism and Christianity where the 6 day creation was not understood as a literal narrative.   
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #352 on: July 08, 2016, 09:27:02 AM »
Whatever, Pr. Austin.  Whatever.  I really did not expect you to acknowledge selective application of ELCA discipline.  But now Diego can see there is another side to the story.

South Africa had a truth and reconciliation commission after the apartheid regime fell.  A necessary step to reconciliation is an honest accounting of past events.  I see you are not ready for that.  You shouldn't expect others to "get over it" if you're not.

Sterling Spatz
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:30:05 AM by MaddogLutheran »
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Diego

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #353 on: July 08, 2016, 09:37:16 AM »
Whatever, Pr. Austin.  Whatever.  I really did not expect you to acknowledge selective application of ELCA discipline.  But now Diego can see there is another side to the story.

South Africa had a truth and reconciliation commission after the apartheid regime fell.  A necessary step to reconciliation is an honest accounting of past events.  I see you are not ready for that.  You shouldn't expect others to "get over it" if you're not.

Sterling Spatz

A true willingness to "get over it" would imply that the "liberal progressive" be willing to acknowledge his violation of the Canons and regulations set in place by the Church for the well-being of the household of God. Of course, no "Progressive" will ever do that. They are above such things. Its rather like the Clintons and their attitude of laws being for other people, and not themselves.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:41:47 AM by Diego »

MaddogLutheran

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #354 on: July 08, 2016, 09:43:12 AM »
Mr. Spatz writes:
(2)  Any Reconciled in Christ ELCA congregations possibly celebrating joint communion services with congregations and clergy expelled from the ELCA would certainly have been Okey Dokey, because inclusiveness!  (Unfortunately I cannot find documentation for this at the moment, but I have no doubt these did occur.  They had to have, given the players involved.)
I comment:
No, they were in violation of our policies. The churches San Francisco churches expelled from fellowship lost their right to officially participate in synodical activities. But the synod voted to give them the privilege of participating in some things, although they could not vote at assemblies.


Richard may correct me about this, but as I remember it, each synod assembly near the beginning passed a resolution giving voice and vote to the voting members from those two congregations.

Voice only, not vote.
Thank you for clarifying.  Though I never made the claim that they had such governing influence at synod assemblies.  As I specifically stated these congregations were "expelled", so it would more than passing strange if they did. 

Specifically, I said: possibly celebrating joint communion services with congregations and clergy expelled from the ELCA.  My point being there was never any "discipline" possibility for violating the alleged rule from the Means of Grace.  Of course, since our governing documents don't specify a particular punishment for such an infraction (unlike I'm sure Missouri bylaws do), any attempt at punishment would itself be arbitrary. 

As it has been when bishops "forbid" such actions by ELCA rostered pastors at NALC congregations.  Of course "someone" could bring charges against a bishop for exceeding his authority, but as Chuck rightly observed above, the fix is in.  I would say good luck with that.  The system is only responsive if you are part of the ascendant tribe.

I do recognize, as Pr. Charlton did upstream, that there may be times that a synod bishop could rightly "forbid" such NALC interactions, if a particular local situation had become acrimonious and perhaps needed a cooling down period.  A bishop would be using the bully pulpit of his office, without any real authority to do so.  But this would also require him to be acting in good faith.  As I pointed out linking to the Eau Claire, WI situation, that may not always be the case.

Sterling Spatz
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 09:51:26 AM by MaddogLutheran »
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DCharlton

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #355 on: July 08, 2016, 09:51:39 AM »
You might not realize that it pains me to post this, but it does.
1. If, for reasons of your own (those reasons being deeply-seated in your psyche, or perhaps hot-branded into your sense of who you are, or maybe defenses against facing things you are unable to face, or brought on by some quirk of biology), you choose to "believe" things that are not true, at this point I will simply not try to offer you counsel and correction. Believe that the moon is made of green cheese, if you wish; or that vigorous applause at the end of a performance of "Peter Pan" actually saves the life of a fairy friend; I will not try to change your mind, but will lament your inability to grasp reality.

Since Pr. Austin plays amateur psychologist, I'll return the favor:  Withdraw the PROJECTION, Charles.

Quote
2. This resentment-flavored re-hash of events at ELCA assemblies a decade or more ago is sadly beginning to sound like the obsession some in the LCMS have with a Yankee Stadium event that followed the attacks of 9/11. I do not want to contribute to this unhealthy mania, so I will not comment.

Here, Pr. Austin engages in obfuscation in the service of DENIAL.  A non-biased reader knows that the issue is an ongoing double standard, not event of the distant past. 

Quote
3. The loudest voices here, the voices that continually condemn the church body in which I am called to serve the Gospel as a pastor, do not represent the future of the ELCA or my ministry in it. And while they rage and fume in this forum, they are not having an effect on the broader mission of the ELCA, so I must make a serious attempt to ignore them.

I'm not sure what to call this, except perhaps a Freudian slip.  (Remember, we're playing amateur psychologist with Charles.)  Here Pr. Austin admits that those who want to complain about a vindictive double standard are whistling Dixie.  The double standard is here to stay and people should just get over it. 
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Diego

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #356 on: July 08, 2016, 09:56:04 AM »
It would behoove the so-called "humble correspondent" to refrain from discussing psychology and history, and perhaps contain himself to his liberal theology, and try to defend that mush (which admittedly cannot be defended). But he could at LEAST, by so doing, refrain from making himself look quite so silly.

SomeoneWrites

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #357 on: July 08, 2016, 10:06:04 AM »
It would behoove the so-called "humble correspondent" to refrain from discussing psychology and history, and perhaps contain himself to his liberal theology, and try to defend that mush (which admittedly cannot be defended). But he could at LEAST, by so doing, refrain from making himself look quite so silly.

I haven't found liberal theology compelling.  However, I would say there's a substantial number of people who have, so I would definitely say that it can be defended.  Same thing for Orthodox, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, WELS, etc.  There was a time I never thought I'd be atheist.  I ask honestly, was there a time when you were Jewish when never thought you would be a Christian? 
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #358 on: July 08, 2016, 10:11:07 AM »
Even I am literalist. But one thing I learned from the Rabbis was the following. The Earth was made BEFORE the Sun and the Moon and the Stars also. YOU CAN'T HAVE 24 HOUR DAYS WITHOUT THE SUN!

While I like the "God is light" quote, this was never an issue for me because God can have 24 hour days whenever he wants. 

Indeed, and He does. What does the sun have to do with it?
Don Kirchner

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Fletch

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Re: An Exception to the Rule
« Reply #359 on: July 08, 2016, 10:13:55 AM »
Even I am literalist. But one thing I learned from the Rabbis was the following. The Earth was made BEFORE the Sun and the Moon and the Stars also. YOU CAN'T HAVE 24 HOUR DAYS WITHOUT THE SUN!

While I like the "God is light" quote, this was never an issue for me because God can have 24 hour days whenever he wants. 

Indeed, and He does. What does the sun have to do with it?

Reason is the whore of theology.   Hmmmmm, seems like I've heard that somewhere ........  ;)

... Fletch