Author Topic: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report  (Read 15721 times)

LCMS87

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #300 on: May 26, 2016, 03:25:19 PM »

Mrs. Meyer, I have two questions based on your most recent posts:

1. Do you think you are created in the image of God as your post above indicates?  As I read Scripture, only the first man and first woman were created in the image of God (Gn 1:26, 27).  The rest of us came along after the fall and subsequent curse.  I don't know about you, but I am certainly simultaneously saint AND sinner.  I do not believe God sins.  Thus, I'm not created in His image (until after the Last Day).

2. Could you please cut to the chase, what is it specifically you want?

... Fletch

I'm not Dcs. Meyer, but on the first question, consider Genesis 9:5-6, a word from the LORD to Noah after the flood:  [5] And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning:  from every beast I will require it and from man.  From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.  [6] “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

If the fall into sin meant that no human after Adam and Eve retained any vestige--however terribly twisted and defaced--of the image of God, God's word to Noah wouldn't make sense.  To use humanity's creation in the image of God as a way to qualify or limit total depravity would be wrong.  (Nothing I've read from Dcs. Meyer ever does that.)  But somehow God recognizes his image in Noah and his sons and their descendants after them and for that reason holds whoever might shed their blood accountable for that shedding, "for God made man in his own image." 

Weedon

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #301 on: May 26, 2016, 04:01:15 PM »
Also note present tense in 1 Cor 11:

7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

mariemeyer

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #302 on: May 26, 2016, 05:14:17 PM »
Also note present tense in 1 Cor 11:

7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.


How is this text to be interpreted?

Marie

Weedon

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #303 on: May 26, 2016, 06:26:40 PM »
Marie,

My intention in citing it was simply to note that for St. Paul, the image of God is not described as utterly lost with the fall; corrupted? Yes. Distorted? Yes. Destroyed? No. Man still bears the image.

peter_speckhard

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #304 on: May 26, 2016, 06:42:12 PM »
James 3:9, condemning the cursing of people, surely applies in some sense. "With [the tongue] we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God."

Richard Johnson

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #305 on: May 26, 2016, 06:59:05 PM »
Pr. Ball, '87, et al:

Apologies for not using the quote function but that was displaying itself weird in that exchange with me, Pr. Ball, and Pr. Benke.

THANK YOU!
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Fletch

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #306 on: May 26, 2016, 08:06:29 PM »
Thank you to all who have commented on the image of God and the Scriptures that contain that language; I think I have learned something today.  I am now thinking that being in the image of God is similar to Paul's statement in 1 Cor 13 about seeing in a mirror dimly.  Being in the image of God may not necessarily be being very God like (the simultaneous Saint and Sinner concept) even though the Holy Spirit is making us somewhat that way.  Previously, I had always thought being in the image of God meant we were much more God like than the texts may indicate, thus my previous comments about only Adam and Eve were created in the image of God before the fall and subsequent curse.  I can somewhat appreciate that I'm created in the image of Jesus as he was the only person of the Godhead that took on human form.  I have a harder time wrapping my head around being in the image of God the Father (a spirit form as far as I know) or God the Holy Spirit.  So, what is the image of God?  Physical, Emotional, Spirit, Soul, ability to be truthful, ability to love, something else?  Comments please.

1Cor 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

... Fletch

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #307 on: May 26, 2016, 08:50:02 PM »
Too bad I moved Fletch. We could have straightened this out at Two Stones.

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Weedon

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #308 on: May 26, 2016, 08:59:02 PM »
And love is, I believe, the key to the image and likeness. Perhaps think of image as the capacity to love and likeness as growing into ever greater exercise of that capacity. Mankind still loves. But the love has been corrupted, darkened, twisted, distorted. But underneath the mess there is still this restless drive to be loved absolutely and to love absolutely, and yet without the Spirit of God this remains only that seeing into the mirror dimly. Christ comes among us to love and His love reveals that His Father loves and the love that He gives is the Holy Spirit, "for the love of God is poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit whom He has given us." The Spirit comes to retrace the image of perfect love in our lives, even though the work is only partial and fragmentary and won't be complete and shining until the day of resurrection. Yet He pours Himself into our hearts with the faith which is belief in the love God has for us, and it is this and His presence within that begins the work on the restoration of the image. This is the "healing of human nature" which the FC refers to, I believe. Begun, weak, but headed toward a glorious fulfillment. And His daily forgiveness of all that is not love in us and His Spirit (and our renewed will) battling all that is not love, is our growth into the likeness. FWIW.

David Garner

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #309 on: May 26, 2016, 09:02:23 PM »
Marie,

My intention in citing it was simply to note that for St. Paul, the image of God is not described as utterly lost with the fall; corrupted? Yes. Distorted? Yes. Destroyed? No. Man still bears the image.

Thank you for writing this.  I've seen others (not here, I don't think) suggest that "total depravity" means the image was lost in the fall.  This is something that has never sat well with me, and you articulated very well the way I see it as well. 
Orthodox Reader and former Lutheran (LCMS and WELS).

Fletch

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #310 on: May 27, 2016, 09:10:17 AM »
And love is, I believe, the key to the image and likeness. Perhaps think of image as the capacity to love and likeness as growing into ever greater exercise of that capacity. Mankind still loves. But the love has been corrupted, darkened, twisted, distorted. But underneath the mess there is still this restless drive to be loved absolutely and to love absolutely, and yet without the Spirit of God this remains only that seeing into the mirror dimly. Christ comes among us to love and His love reveals that His Father loves and the love that He gives is the Holy Spirit, "for the love of God is poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit whom He has given us." The Spirit comes to retrace the image of perfect love in our lives, even though the work is only partial and fragmentary and won't be complete and shining until the day of resurrection. Yet He pours Himself into our hearts with the faith which is belief in the love God has for us, and it is this and His presence within that begins the work on the restoration of the image. This is the "healing of human nature" which the FC refers to, I believe. Begun, weak, but headed toward a glorious fulfillment. And His daily forgiveness of all that is not love in us and His Spirit (and our renewed will) battling all that is not love, is our growth into the likeness. FWIW.

Thank you!  Very helpful.

... Fletch

mariemeyer

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Re: 2016 LCMS Convention President's Report
« Reply #311 on: May 27, 2016, 10:04:58 AM »
And love is, I believe, the key to the image and likeness. Perhaps think of image as the capacity to love and likeness as growing into ever greater exercise of that capacity. Mankind still loves. But the love has been corrupted, darkened, twisted, distorted. But underneath the mess there is still this restless drive to be loved absolutely and to love absolutely, and yet without the Spirit of God this remains only that seeing into the mirror dimly. Christ comes among us to love and His love reveals that His Father loves and the love that He gives is the Holy Spirit, "for the love of God is poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit whom He has given us." The Spirit comes to retrace the image of perfect love in our lives, even though the work is only partial and fragmentary and won't be complete and shining until the day of resurrection. Yet He pours Himself into our hearts with the faith which is belief in the love God has for us, and it is this and His presence within that begins the work on the restoration of the image. This is the "healing of human nature" which the FC refers to, I believe. Begun, weak, but headed toward a glorious fulfillment. And His daily forgiveness of all that is not love in us and His Spirit (and our renewed will) battling all that is not love, is our growth into the likeness. FWIW.

Thank you!  Very helpful.

... Fletch

I understand the creation of male and female in the image of God as an expression of the original relationship between God and Man. Prior to the fall God and Man were like in holiness and unlike as Creator and creature.  God "knew" Man as God's beloved counterpart on earth and Man "knew" God as God their Creator.

When Man sought to know what it was to like God the Creator, the "marriage" between God and Man was broken.  The potential for a restored relationship between God and Man existed ONLY because God longed for the restoration of what existed before the fall.  God alone had the power to recreate Man so that Man, both the male and the female could again "know" God as their God. 

Rather than being turned inward in perverted self love, male and female would have to die to self before they could recognize the mystery of their creation as God's One Holy beloved counterpart on earth.