Author Topic: R.I.P Justice Scalia  (Read 12680 times)

FrPeters

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #225 on: February 23, 2016, 03:45:27 PM »
On his death bed, my father requested of me that I preach and preside at his funeral.  This I said, I could not do, except his own pastor give permission.  When I spoke with my dad's own pastor, who also gave my dad his last Holy Communion the day he died, I asked if he would allow me to preach and fulfill my father's request but I deliberately asked him to preside at the service.  He graciously allowed me to preach and offered to have me do everything.  In the end, I preached (who can deny his father a last request although it was not my preference) and he presided at the liturgy and the committal.  The point of this is that nearly every where I have gone I have known LCMS pastors to be as gracious.  If one does not presume right but requests privilege, hardly any LCMS pastor I know would give second thought to acceding to the request.  I have done so many times with respect to weddings and funerals.  I expect this is typical across the board for all Lutherans.
Fr Larry Peters
Grace LCMS, Clarksville, TN
http://www.pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/

Charles Austin

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #226 on: February 23, 2016, 05:39:05 PM »
It is as I noted above, Pastor Peters (although not, apparently in my current bunny rabbit persona); namely, that pastors who invite or let other pastors preach and/or preside in these situations do not "step aside," nor do they abrogate their pastoral oversight. On the contrary, they exercise it in valuable ways.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #227 on: February 23, 2016, 06:34:10 PM »
It is as I noted above, Pastor Peters (although not, apparently in my current bunny rabbit persona); namely, that pastors who invite or let other pastors preach and/or preside in these situations do not "step aside," nor do they abrogate their pastoral oversight. On the contrary, they exercise it in valuable ways.


I agree.

Eileen Smith

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #228 on: February 23, 2016, 06:55:56 PM »
The example above is exactly what I was pointing to in suggesting that a pastor may allow an ordained family member (of a denomination with whom the church has pulpit and altar fellowship) have a role of the funeral service, if the parish pastor believes that it is within the wishes of the family and will help the family. 

Fully in agreement, Ms. Smith.

Thanks.

Thank you!

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #229 on: February 23, 2016, 09:04:19 PM »
It is very easy for a family whose pastor refuses to allow an ordained relative to preside at a funeral to take the funeral to the funeral home and bypass the pastor and the church building altogether. Some funeral homes encourage services at their facilities which are built for the movement of a casket. Some congregational buildings are not.
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Richard Johnson

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #230 on: February 23, 2016, 09:05:09 PM »
It's an interesting thing, this "request of the deceased" deal. I think about my father-in-law. He was a member of my congregation at the time of his death, so it fell to me to conduct the funeral--a great privilege, though not easy. One of his sons is also an ELCA pastor, so I invited him to assist, both in the planning and in the service itself; other of his children served as lectors, grandchildren as pallbearers, etc. Dad had filled out our church's "instructions for my funeral" form, and as my brother-in-law and I looked over it, one thing we noticed was that he had checked the box indicating he did not want the service to include the Eucharist. I said to my bro, "I propose we overrule him." "Absolutely, I agree," he replied. Everybody else in the family who cared agreed as well. So it was a full Eucharist, despite Dad's instructions. We chalked it up to his Norwegian piety which just wasn't much accustomed to the Eucharist at a funeral--though he had progressed greatly in his Eucharistic piety through the years, and was firmly in favor of weekly Eucharist.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #231 on: February 23, 2016, 09:45:24 PM »
It is very easy for a family whose pastor refuses to allow an ordained relative to preside at a funeral to take the funeral to the funeral home and bypass the pastor and the church building altogether. Some funeral homes encourage services at their facilities which are built for the movement of a casket. Some congregational buildings are not.

 ::)
Don Kirchner

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peterm

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #232 on: February 24, 2016, 10:14:02 AM »
I had a situation last year in my parish where the son and grandson of the deceased member are also ELCA Pastors serving in other synods.  I offered to have them assist in any way, and they indicated that they would like to help serve the Eucharist, but otherwise they wanted to be "Just family." They helped with the planning of the service and it was beautiful.  It was good for the congregation to see these two "sons" of the parish be involved in the ways that they chose to be involved. In cases where I am aware that there are clergy in the family I often invite them to share.  What I will not do is share with someone who gets ordained online for a one time deal.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #233 on: February 24, 2016, 10:45:02 AM »
I had a situation last year in my parish where the son and grandson of the deceased member are also ELCA Pastors serving in other synods.  I offered to have them assist in any way, and they indicated that they would like to help serve the Eucharist, but otherwise they wanted to be "Just family." They helped with the planning of the service and it was beautiful.  It was good for the congregation to see these two "sons" of the parish be involved in the ways that they chose to be involved. In cases where I am aware that there are clergy in the family I often invite them to share.  What I will not do is share with someone who gets ordained online for a one time deal.


Do people "ordained" online ask to participate in funerals or marriages in your churches?  I would be extremely uncomfortable with that!


My sense had been that people get "ordained" online so that they can preside over civil/secular weddings.  Many states know full well that this is happening and expressly permit/encourage it.  And indeed, in one such state, after triple-checking the law and the way in which it's applied, I myself jumped through this ordination hoop in order to preside at a wedding.  The ceremony was entirely secular.  I would not ever presume to preside over a religious wedding.


(The only tenet of the entity that "ordained" me is that any competent adult of any faith or of no faith should be able to preside over civil wedding ceremonies.  For the state at issue, this was enough.  That state has since changed its law, expressly permitting anyone -- "ordained" or not -- to preside at civil weddings.)   

Charles Austin

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #234 on: February 24, 2016, 11:23:17 AM »
You do not need to be ordained to preside at a wedding. And the state does not care whether the person presiding is religious or not, hence judges and other civil magistrates often officiate.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

peterm

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #235 on: February 24, 2016, 12:16:03 PM »
I had a situation last year in my parish where the son and grandson of the deceased member are also ELCA Pastors serving in other synods.  I offered to have them assist in any way, and they indicated that they would like to help serve the Eucharist, but otherwise they wanted to be "Just family." They helped with the planning of the service and it was beautiful.  It was good for the congregation to see these two "sons" of the parish be involved in the ways that they chose to be involved. In cases where I am aware that there are clergy in the family I often invite them to share.  What I will not do is share with someone who gets ordained online for a one time deal.


Do people "ordained" online ask to participate in funerals or marriages in your churches?  I would be extremely uncomfortable with that!


My sense had been that people get "ordained" online so that they can preside over civil/secular weddings.  Many states know full well that this is happening and expressly permit/encourage it.  And indeed, in one such state, after triple-checking the law and the way in which it's applied, I myself jumped through this ordination hoop in order to preside at a wedding.  The ceremony was entirely secular.  I would not ever presume to preside over a religious wedding.


(The only tenet of the entity that "ordained" me is that any competent adult of any faith or of no faith should be able to preside over civil wedding ceremonies.  For the state at issue, this was enough.  That state has since changed its law, expressly permitting anyone -- "ordained" or not -- to preside at civil weddings.)   

In the last 8 months I have had 3 such requests because one of my churches is the quintessential "cute little country church."  The request goes like this.  We would like to use your church but a friend of ours is getting ordained on line so that they can do the ceremony.  Our policies for funerals and weddings now reads that while I am happy to share these services, there needs to be something other than an online certificate to indicate authority, and I need to be involved in some way since I hold the Call to the parish.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #236 on: February 24, 2016, 12:18:26 PM »
I had a situation last year in my parish where the son and grandson of the deceased member are also ELCA Pastors serving in other synods.  I offered to have them assist in any way, and they indicated that they would like to help serve the Eucharist, but otherwise they wanted to be "Just family." They helped with the planning of the service and it was beautiful.  It was good for the congregation to see these two "sons" of the parish be involved in the ways that they chose to be involved. In cases where I am aware that there are clergy in the family I often invite them to share.  What I will not do is share with someone who gets ordained online for a one time deal.


Do people "ordained" online ask to participate in funerals or marriages in your churches?  I would be extremely uncomfortable with that!


My sense had been that people get "ordained" online so that they can preside over civil/secular weddings.  Many states know full well that this is happening and expressly permit/encourage it.  And indeed, in one such state, after triple-checking the law and the way in which it's applied, I myself jumped through this ordination hoop in order to preside at a wedding.  The ceremony was entirely secular.  I would not ever presume to preside over a religious wedding.


(The only tenet of the entity that "ordained" me is that any competent adult of any faith or of no faith should be able to preside over civil wedding ceremonies.  For the state at issue, this was enough.  That state has since changed its law, expressly permitting anyone -- "ordained" or not -- to preside at civil weddings.)   

In the last 8 months I have had 3 such requests because one of my churches is the quintessential "cute little country church."  The request goes like this.  We would like to use your church but a friend of ours is getting ordained on line so that they can do the ceremony.  Our policies for funerals and weddings now reads that while I am happy to share these services, there needs to be something other than an online certificate to indicate authority, and I need to be involved in some way since I hold the Call to the parish.


I guess that I shouldn't be surprised.  But I am.  Yikes.

James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #237 on: February 24, 2016, 12:26:45 PM »
You do not need to be ordained to preside at a wedding. And the state does not care whether the person presiding is religious or not, hence judges and other civil magistrates often officiate.


No state law requires officiants at weddings to be religious or to be ordained.  However, many (most?) state statutes create limited categories of people who may preside at weddings.  Those categories always include (i) judges/civil magistrates and (ii) authorized religious leaders.  Historically, in many places, if you did not fall into one of these categories, you could not preside at a wedding. 


That's changed a great deal in recent years.  Some states have changed their statutes to expressly permit pretty much anyone to officiate.  Other states have retained their old marriage statutes, but local officials have grown ever more willing to accept "ordinations" that they once would have rejected as shams.  In this way, these states effectively now permit virtually anyone to preside.

pearson

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #238 on: February 24, 2016, 12:36:48 PM »

No state law requires officiants at weddings to be religious or to be ordained.  However, many (most?) state statutes create limited categories of people who may preside at weddings.  Those categories always include (i) judges/civil magistrates and (ii) authorized religious leaders.  Historically, in many places, if you did not fall into one of these categories, you could not preside at a wedding. 


That's changed a great deal in recent years.  Some states have changed their statutes to expressly permit pretty much anyone to officiate.  Other states have retained their old marriage statutes, but local officials have grown ever more willing to accept "ordinations" that they once would have rejected as shams.  In this way, these states effectively now permit virtually anyone to preside.


My daughter is getting married on March 13, and I am officiating at the wedding ceremony.  When I asked my synodical bishop several months ago about the propriety of this, he told me that, in Texas, "if the couple honestly believes that you are authorized to perform weddings, then you are by that fact authorized to perform their wedding."  I guess it's the anti-realist version of state marriage law.

Tom Pearson

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #239 on: February 24, 2016, 02:39:46 PM »
In New York City, all it takes is registration with the city clergy. Fill out a form, stating your religious affiliation (or lack of it), and you get on the list of approved officiants.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.