Author Topic: R.I.P Justice Scalia  (Read 12419 times)

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12256
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #210 on: February 23, 2016, 07:59:33 AM »
So long as it did not violate fellowship considerations, I personally would not oppose or be offended if the family requested an ordained member of the family conduct the funeral or participate in the funeral.  If we are not in fellowship with the church body that the ordained family member is ordained in, then I would suggest that they could do readings, or offer comments, but not preach.  Also, when the extended family had close ties to a neighboring LCMS church I have invited that pastor to participate in the funeral, although I still conducted it.  As much as is reasonable and possible, without violating long standing policy, I try to accommodate family wishes.

That said, I was very glad to let my mother's pastor conduct here funeral and preach for it.  I did not want to do more than be a pall bearer and be family at the funeral.  Others, no doubt, feel differently.

Indeed, Dan, and I understand that accommodation. The issue here is whether you should step aside, particularly due to a theology of glory and misplaced feelings, a misunderstanding of a gospel proclamation, and a confusion of the funeral itself.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Eileen Smith

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #211 on: February 23, 2016, 08:27:49 AM »
So long as it did not violate fellowship considerations, I personally would not oppose or be offended if the family requested an ordained member of the family conduct the funeral or participate in the funeral.  If we are not in fellowship with the church body that the ordained family member is ordained in, then I would suggest that they could do readings, or offer comments, but not preach.  Also, when the extended family had close ties to a neighboring LCMS church I have invited that pastor to participate in the funeral, although I still conducted it.  As much as is reasonable and possible, without violating long standing policy, I try to accommodate family wishes.

That said, I was very glad to let my mother's pastor conduct here funeral and preach for it.  I did not want to do more than be a pall bearer and be family at the funeral.  Others, no doubt, feel differently.

Indeed, Dan, and I understand that accommodation. The issue here is whether you should step aside, particularly due to a theology of glory and misplaced feelings, a misunderstanding of a gospel proclamation, and a confusion of the funeral itself.

I never suggested (I hope) that the pastor should step aside, in fact somewhere upstream I may have noted it was very gracious of a pastor to do so.  I simply state that it may be done and is appropriate - that is, if the pastor does allow an ordained family member to participate, it is appropriate rather than inappropriate.   

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12256
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #212 on: February 23, 2016, 08:34:51 AM »
So long as it did not violate fellowship considerations, I personally would not oppose or be offended if the family requested an ordained member of the family conduct the funeral or participate in the funeral.  If we are not in fellowship with the church body that the ordained family member is ordained in, then I would suggest that they could do readings, or offer comments, but not preach.  Also, when the extended family had close ties to a neighboring LCMS church I have invited that pastor to participate in the funeral, although I still conducted it.  As much as is reasonable and possible, without violating long standing policy, I try to accommodate family wishes.

That said, I was very glad to let my mother's pastor conduct here funeral and preach for it.  I did not want to do more than be a pall bearer and be family at the funeral.  Others, no doubt, feel differently.

Indeed, Dan, and I understand that accommodation. The issue here is whether you should step aside, particularly due to a theology of glory and misplaced feelings, a misunderstanding of a gospel proclamation, and a confusion of the funeral itself.

I never suggested (I hope) that the pastor should step aside...

I concluded that you indeed suggested that when you wrote,   

"In a most difficult time, the death of a loved one, the community, under the guidance of the pastor, works to be present with the family in their grief and attend to their needs even if this may mean that the pastor step aside to allow someone else to allow someone else to take a role in worship."

and,

"I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside."

Are you now suggesting that the "parish pastor" (there is a reason why he's called that) step aside or not step aside?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 08:44:02 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 14913
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #213 on: February 23, 2016, 08:40:44 AM »
If a pastor allows the relative of the deceased to conduct funeral rites in that pastor's congregation, that is not "stepping aside." It is providing a different kind of leadership.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns couldíve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19393
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #214 on: February 23, 2016, 08:49:08 AM »
If a pastor allows the relative of the deceased to conduct funeral rites in that pastor's congregation, that is not "stepping aside." It is providing a different kind of leadership.
Charles, please don't quote or respond to Don Kirchener.

Dave Likeness

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5286
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #215 on: February 23, 2016, 09:17:02 AM »
The restraining order placed on Brother Austin raises some questions:

What is the average poster on this ALPB Forum suppose to do?

Who is on the most wanted list for hijacking various threads?

How can Lutheran Levity make this Forum great again?
 

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19393
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #216 on: February 23, 2016, 09:25:09 AM »
The restraining order placed on Brother Austin raises some questions:

What is the average poster on this ALPB Forum suppose to do?

Who is on the most wanted list for hijacking various threads?

How can Lutheran Levity make this Forum great again?
It is a two-way restraining order, and Don asked me if he could respond, which historically has not led to good things. So I simply reminded Charles of the policy in place of he and Don not interacting.

Dave Likeness

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5286
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #217 on: February 23, 2016, 09:33:07 AM »
On behalf of the average posters on this ALPB Forum I want to thank
Moderator Pastor Speckhard for his clarification of the Austin/Kirchner
situation.   As the late, great John Lennon said, "Give Peace A Chance".

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 14913
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #218 on: February 23, 2016, 09:44:00 AM »
But what if I set aside my normal "mean," "nasty," "snarky"  ::) ::) ::) persona and take on the characteristics of a sweet, cuddly, bunny rabbit with a cute twitchy nose and fluffy tail? Can Bunny Rabbit Austin respond? (And my last response to Pastor Kirchner was quite benign.)
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns couldíve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19393
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #219 on: February 23, 2016, 10:29:51 AM »
But what if I set aside my normal "mean," "nasty," "snarky"  ::) ::) ::) persona and take on the characteristics of a sweet, cuddly, bunny rabbit with a cute twitchy nose and fluffy tail? Can Bunny Rabbit Austin respond? (And my last response to Pastor Kirchner was quite benign.)
But then he will respond to you, you'll both get agitated, and pretty soon I'll be, for the umpteenth time, deleting a long string of posts that are nothing but put-downs and general screeching. So no, I'd prefer if you didn't interact with him even benignly in this forum. Stick to Scalia's funeral and the side topic of who ought to preside at funerals without responding to Don. 

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12256
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #220 on: February 23, 2016, 10:29:58 AM »
Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Eileen Smith

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #221 on: February 23, 2016, 11:18:21 AM »
Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response. 

It is I who used the phrase, "step aside," not Pr. Kirchner.  From a previous post in response to something that Father Slusser wrote, I responded: :  Thank you for sharing this.  I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside.   

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12256
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #222 on: February 23, 2016, 11:53:39 AM »
Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response. 

It is I who used the phrase, "step aside," not Pr. Kirchner.  From a previous post in response to something that Father Slusser wrote, I responded: :  Thank you for sharing this.  I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside.   

So, are you suggesting that in such a case the parish pastor should step aside or not? How about in this situation?

"In a most difficult time, the death of a loved one, the community, under the guidance of the pastor, works to be present with the family in their grief and attend to their needs even if this may mean that the pastor step aside to allow someone else to allow someone else to take a role in worship."

In such a case should the parish pastor step aside or not?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Eileen Smith

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #223 on: February 23, 2016, 01:27:11 PM »
Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response. 

It is I who used the phrase, "step aside," not Pr. Kirchner.  From a previous post in response to something that Father Slusser wrote, I responded: :  Thank you for sharing this.  I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside.   

So, are you suggesting that in such a case the parish pastor should step aside or not? How about in this situation?

"In a most difficult time, the death of a loved one, the community, under the guidance of the pastor, works to be present with the family in their grief and attend to their needs even if this may mean that the pastor step aside to allow someone else to allow someone else to take a role in worship."

In such a case should the parish pastor step aside or not?

Oh dear!  I thought I was simply clarifying a point of authorship.  First, and now very clear to me, "step aside' was a misstep on my part.  I write for a few organizations and I tend to be less formal on this Forum. 

The example above is exactly what I was pointing to in suggesting that a pastor may allow an ordained family member (of a denomination with whom the church has pulpit and altar fellowship) have a role of the funeral service, if the parish pastor believes that it is within the wishes of the family and will help the family.  My point was that the funeral service is not one of the regularly scheduled services of the congregation.  The members of the congregation may - or may not - attend the funeral.  But even if members of the congregation do attend, the community is usually quite different than the Sunday morning community.  Given how difficult it is to suffer the death of a loved one, the pastor may do certain things to accommodate the family and one of those things may be that s/he invites another ordained pastor (that is, family member) to have a role -- preach/preside/read or some combination thereof. 

I shared the story of a family who did not see eye-to-eye with the pastor and (as I've seen happen with 'legacy' memberships, e.g., parents, grandparents) the family simple called in two other clergy when their daughter died.  In another situation, a toddler died in a tragic accident in a congregation in NY.    The person who had been pastor to this congregation had, months earlier, accepted a call to another congregation and a new pastor was already in place.  The family reached out to their former pastor and she declined, telling the couple that they needed to be under the care of the new pastor.  I'd say she was spot on. 

That's what started all of this Pastor Kirchner.  How far, if at all, does one go in helping a family in a time of grief.   

I will say that I can't imagine anyone other than my pastor - and I've several close friends who are pastors as well as having served as deacon to Bishop Stephen Bouman - presiding and preaching at my funeral.

Donald_Kirchner

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 12256
    • View Profile
Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #224 on: February 23, 2016, 02:17:33 PM »
The example above is exactly what I was pointing to in suggesting that a pastor may allow an ordained family member (of a denomination with whom the church has pulpit and altar fellowship) have a role of the funeral service, if the parish pastor believes that it is within the wishes of the family and will help the family. 

Fully in agreement, Ms. Smith.

Thanks.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs