R.I.P Justice Scalia

[Donald_Kirchner]

So long as it did not violate fellowship considerations, I personally would not oppose or be offended if the family requested an ordained member of the family conduct the funeral or participate in the funeral.  If we are not in fellowship with the church body that the ordained family member is ordained in, then I would suggest that they could do readings, or offer comments, but not preach.  Also, when the extended family had close ties to a neighboring LCMS church I have invited that pastor to participate in the funeral, although I still conducted it.  As much as is reasonable and possible, without violating long standing policy, I try to accommodate family wishes.

That said, I was very glad to let my mother's pastor conduct here funeral and preach for it.  I did not want to do more than be a pall bearer and be family at the funeral.  Others, no doubt, feel differently.

Indeed, Dan, and I understand that accommodation. The issue here is whether you should step aside, particularly due to a theology of glory and misplaced feelings, a misunderstanding of a gospel proclamation, and a confusion of the funeral itself.

[Eileen Smith]

So long as it did not violate fellowship considerations, I personally would not oppose or be offended if the family requested an ordained member of the family conduct the funeral or participate in the funeral.  If we are not in fellowship with the church body that the ordained family member is ordained in, then I would suggest that they could do readings, or offer comments, but not preach.  Also, when the extended family had close ties to a neighboring LCMS church I have invited that pastor to participate in the funeral, although I still conducted it.  As much as is reasonable and possible, without violating long standing policy, I try to accommodate family wishes.

That said, I was very glad to let my mother's pastor conduct here funeral and preach for it.  I did not want to do more than be a pall bearer and be family at the funeral.  Others, no doubt, feel differently.

Indeed, Dan, and I understand that accommodation. The issue here is whether you should step aside, particularly due to a theology of glory and misplaced feelings, a misunderstanding of a gospel proclamation, and a confusion of the funeral itself.

I never suggested (I hope) that the pastor should step aside, in fact somewhere upstream I may have noted it was very gracious of a pastor to do so.  I simply state that it may be done and is appropriate - that is, if the pastor does allow an ordained family member to participate, it is appropriate rather than inappropriate.   

[Donald_Kirchner]

So long as it did not violate fellowship considerations, I personally would not oppose or be offended if the family requested an ordained member of the family conduct the funeral or participate in the funeral.  If we are not in fellowship with the church body that the ordained family member is ordained in, then I would suggest that they could do readings, or offer comments, but not preach.  Also, when the extended family had close ties to a neighboring LCMS church I have invited that pastor to participate in the funeral, although I still conducted it.  As much as is reasonable and possible, without violating long standing policy, I try to accommodate family wishes.

That said, I was very glad to let my mother's pastor conduct here funeral and preach for it.  I did not want to do more than be a pall bearer and be family at the funeral.  Others, no doubt, feel differently.

Indeed, Dan, and I understand that accommodation. The issue here is whether you should step aside, particularly due to a theology of glory and misplaced feelings, a misunderstanding of a gospel proclamation, and a confusion of the funeral itself.

I never suggested (I hope) that the pastor should step aside...

I concluded that you indeed suggested that when you wrote,   

"In a most difficult time, the death of a loved one, the community, under the guidance of the pastor, works to be present with the family in their grief and attend to their needs even if this may mean that the pastor step aside to allow someone else to allow someone else to take a role in worship."

and,

"I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside."

Are you now suggesting that the "parish pastor" (there is a reason why he's called that) step aside or not step aside?

[Charles Austin]

If a pastor allows the relative of the deceased to conduct funeral rites in that pastor's congregation, that is not "stepping aside." It is providing a different kind of leadership.

[peter_speckhard]

If a pastor allows the relative of the deceased to conduct funeral rites in that pastor's congregation, that is not "stepping aside." It is providing a different kind of leadership.

Charles, please don't quote or respond to Don Kirchener.

[Dave Likeness]

The restraining order placed on Brother Austin raises some questions:

What is the average poster on this ALPB Forum suppose to do?

Who is on the most wanted list for hijacking various threads?

How can Lutheran Levity make this Forum great again?

[peter_speckhard]

The restraining order placed on Brother Austin raises some questions:

What is the average poster on this ALPB Forum suppose to do?

Who is on the most wanted list for hijacking various threads?

How can Lutheran Levity make this Forum great again?

It is a two-way restraining order, and Don asked me if he could respond, which historically has not led to good things. So I simply reminded Charles of the policy in place of he and Don not interacting.

[Dave Likeness]

On behalf of the average posters on this ALPB Forum I want to thank
Moderator Pastor Speckhard for his clarification of the Austin/Kirchner
situation.   As the late, great John Lennon said, "Give Peace A Chance".

[Charles Austin]

But what if I set aside my normal "mean," "nasty," "snarky"  persona and take on the characteristics of a sweet, cuddly, bunny rabbit with a cute twitchy nose and fluffy tail? Can Bunny Rabbit Austin respond? (And my last response to Pastor Kirchner was quite benign.)

[peter_speckhard]

But what if I set aside my normal "mean," "nasty," "snarky"  persona and take on the characteristics of a sweet, cuddly, bunny rabbit with a cute twitchy nose and fluffy tail? Can Bunny Rabbit Austin respond? (And my last response to Pastor Kirchner was quite benign.)

But then he will respond to you, you'll both get agitated, and pretty soon I'll be, for the umpteenth time, deleting a long string of posts that are nothing but put-downs and general screeching. So no, I'd prefer if you didn't interact with him even benignly in this forum. Stick to Scalia's funeral and the side topic of who ought to preside at funerals without responding to Don. 

[Donald_Kirchner]

Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response.

[Eileen Smith]

Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response. 

It is I who used the phrase, "step aside," not Pr. Kirchner.  From a previous post in response to something that Father Slusser wrote, I responded: :  Thank you for sharing this.  I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside.   

[Donald_Kirchner]

Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response. 

It is I who used the phrase, "step aside," not Pr. Kirchner.  From a previous post in response to something that Father Slusser wrote, I responded: :  Thank you for sharing this.  I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside.   

So, are you suggesting that in such a case the parish pastor should step aside or not? How about in this situation?

"In a most difficult time, the death of a loved one, the community, under the guidance of the pastor, works to be present with the family in their grief and attend to their needs even if this may mean that the pastor step aside to allow someone else to allow someone else to take a role in worship."

In such a case should the parish pastor step aside or not?

[Eileen Smith]

Ms Smith,

Charles Austin and I have been ordered not to respond to each other's posts, directly or indirectly. So, I will await your response. 

It is I who used the phrase, "step aside," not Pr. Kirchner.  From a previous post in response to something that Father Slusser wrote, I responded: :  Thank you for sharing this.  I do agree that it is very appropriate for a family member, who is ordained, to be invited to preach and/or preside at the funeral - even if it means that the parish pastor step aside.   

So, are you suggesting that in such a case the parish pastor should step aside or not? How about in this situation?

"In a most difficult time, the death of a loved one, the community, under the guidance of the pastor, works to be present with the family in their grief and attend to their needs even if this may mean that the pastor step aside to allow someone else to allow someone else to take a role in worship."

In such a case should the parish pastor step aside or not?

Oh dear!  I thought I was simply clarifying a point of authorship.  First, and now very clear to me, "step aside' was a misstep on my part.  I write for a few organizations and I tend to be less formal on this Forum. 

The example above is exactly what I was pointing to in suggesting that a pastor may allow an ordained family member (of a denomination with whom the church has pulpit and altar fellowship) have a role of the funeral service, if the parish pastor believes that it is within the wishes of the family and will help the family.  My point was that the funeral service is not one of the regularly scheduled services of the congregation.  The members of the congregation may - or may not - attend the funeral.  But even if members of the congregation do attend, the community is usually quite different than the Sunday morning community.  Given how difficult it is to suffer the death of a loved one, the pastor may do certain things to accommodate the family and one of those things may be that s/he invites another ordained pastor (that is, family member) to have a role -- preach/preside/read or some combination thereof. 

I shared the story of a family who did not see eye-to-eye with the pastor and (as I've seen happen with 'legacy' memberships, e.g., parents, grandparents) the family simple called in two other clergy when their daughter died.  In another situation, a toddler died in a tragic accident in a congregation in NY.    The person who had been pastor to this congregation had, months earlier, accepted a call to another congregation and a new pastor was already in place.  The family reached out to their former pastor and she declined, telling the couple that they needed to be under the care of the new pastor.  I'd say she was spot on. 

That's what started all of this Pastor Kirchner.  How far, if at all, does one go in helping a family in a time of grief.   

I will say that I can't imagine anyone other than my pastor - and I've several close friends who are pastors as well as having served as deacon to Bishop Stephen Bouman - presiding and preaching at my funeral.

[Donald_Kirchner]

The example above is exactly what I was pointing to in suggesting that a pastor may allow an ordained family member (of a denomination with whom the church has pulpit and altar fellowship) have a role of the funeral service, if the parish pastor believes that it is within the wishes of the family and will help the family. 

Fully in agreement, Ms. Smith.

Thanks.