Author Topic: R.I.P Justice Scalia  (Read 12757 times)

James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #150 on: February 20, 2016, 12:30:00 PM »
How difficult must it be to preside and preach at one's father's funeral!

How strange it is that a son would preside and preach at his father's funeral, unless he was his father's pastor.

I am moved by the decision to remove the American flag from the casket for the funeral and to replace it with a simple pall topped with a crucifix. 

Isn't that the norm in the Church? We always remove the flag on a vet's casket before the service, place a funeral pall on it,and remove the pall prior to exiting the church, replaced by the flag.


Why so ungracious?  The Roman Catholic Church and the LCMS have different ecclesiologies.  You know that. 


As for the flag, you no doubt know that what you always do in your church is not necessarily the norm elsewhere.  You most assuredly have seen press coverage of Christian funerals so of public servants and noticed the caskets draped by the American flag.  Indeed, I believe that practice to be the far more common.

No matter the differences in ecclesiology; if the local pastor/priest/bishop/archbishop/cardinal grants a request from a pastor/priest/archbishop/cardinal to proclaim and/or celebrate at a funeral Eucharist because of his relationship with the deceased by blood or friendship, that is the prerogative of that local leader.  I have been on the receiving and giving end of that in many instances through the years.

Dave Benke

This Mass seems to me very appropriate and moving in its understanding of life, abundant life and eternal life, and of the Eucharist as Foretaste of the Feast to Come.


Thanks for these comments.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #151 on: February 20, 2016, 12:34:33 PM »
I did not say that it was strange.  I said that it must be difficult.  I'll leave it to you to ponder the rest.

Ah, thank you for the correction. That better makes the point that perhaps the gracious thing would be to allow the son to be a mourner with the family.

The rest? What "rest"?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 12:36:27 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Dave Benke

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #152 on: February 20, 2016, 12:42:18 PM »
I did not say that it was strange.  I said that it must be difficult.  I'll leave it to you to ponder the rest.

Ah, thank you for the correction. That better makes the point that perhaps the gracious thing would be to allow the son to be a mourner with the family.

The rest? What "rest"?

One of the ponderables, Don, is the engagement/disengagement of the pastor/priest in what he says and does during the Divine Service/Mass.  Do I (as a pastor and baptized person) consider my own sin during the Public Confession?  Am I not in pronouncing Absolution, bringing the grace of God to myself?  In proclaiming the message of salvation, am I not hearing and internalizing what I am proclaiming?  Do I not receive the Holy Meal I have consecrated for my own forgiveness, strength and connection to the communion of saints?  Am I not sent forth to be in mission at the Benediction I pronounce?

While it is no doubt possible to state that a pastor/priest at the funeral of a loved one might desire to be in a solely receiving role, it is also possible that the same pastor/priest can receive as well as give by participating actively.

Dave Benke

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #153 on: February 20, 2016, 01:08:26 PM »
I did not say that it was strange.  I said that it must be difficult.  I'll leave it to you to ponder the rest.

Ah, thank you for the correction. That better makes the point that perhaps the gracious thing would be to allow the son to be a mourner with the family.

The rest? What "rest"?

One of the ponderables, Don, is the engagement/disengagement of the pastor/priest in what he says and does during the Divine Service/Mass.  Do I (as a pastor and baptized person) consider my own sin during the Public Confession?  Am I not in pronouncing Absolution, bringing the grace of God to myself?  In proclaiming the message of salvation, am I not hearing and internalizing what I am proclaiming?  Do I not receive the Holy Meal I have consecrated for my own forgiveness, strength and connection to the communion of saints?  Am I not sent forth to be in mission at the Benediction I pronounce?

While it is no doubt possible to state that a pastor/priest at the funeral of a loved one might desire to be in a solely receiving role, it is also possible that the same pastor/priest can receive as well as give by participating actively.

Dave Benke

I've no disagreement with any of that, Dave.
Don Kirchner

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John_Hannah

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #154 on: February 20, 2016, 01:09:53 PM »
I think that it very common for Roman Catholic priests to officiate at the funerals of their family members. It would seem for them awkward not to.

I also believe that for Roman Catholics the pall is always used once the body is inside the church.

It was indeed an excellent example of evangelical catholic witness to Jesus Christ! There is very little that I would quibble with. Grand conduct of the liturgy and brilliant proclamation!

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

MaddogLutheran

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #155 on: February 20, 2016, 01:11:05 PM »
I DVR'd the funeral on C-SPAN (I'm sure you can stream it online from them as well).

1.  Inside the basilica, the pall replaced the flag over the casket.

2.  Father Scalia  (the celebrant and preacher), at the beginning of his funeral homily, thanked Cardinal Wuerl (archbishop of Washington) and the bishop of Arlington (VA) for allowing this parish funeral to be held at the cathedral basilica, to accommodate the large crowd.  I haven't researched further, but it certainly sounds like Father Scalia was parish pastor to his father--in the Catholic context of multiple priests to a parish.  The cardinal was part of the procession, along with Father Scalia and the deacon/subdeacon of the mass and the usual acolytes etc.  I was wondering if they might use the extraordinary, but it was the ordinary form of the mass.  White paraments as a result.  The EF traditionalists have an attachment to black for funeral masses.

3.  After these introductory pleasantries, Father Scalia said they were all here because of one man...Jesus of Nazareth.  Of course his rhetorical gimmick was to lead you to believe he was talking about his father (a man loved by some, reviled by others, etc).  I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but it didn't sound like a eulogy for his father.  It was a Christian proclamation of the sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life.  I'm thinking that Father Scalia realized the unique opportunity presented him to proclaim the Gospel to a wide audience.  Personally, I don't know that I could have done it myself.  I know I had no interest in giving a eulogy at my father's funeral--I left that to others.

Sterling Spatz
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:15:14 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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Michael Slusser

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #156 on: February 20, 2016, 01:15:09 PM »
I can confirm that what Pr. Kirchner writes about the flag being replaced by the white pall during Catholic funerals is both correct and required. The pall reflects the person's being joined to Christ in baptism--the "document" in Christ's blood that gives entrance to heaven, our true and eternal homeland.

Peace,
Michael

Is this now the consistent practice in Catholic churches?  The funerals for John and Bobby Kennedy (admittedly long ago) most assuredly did not follow it.  I don't believe that the Lutheran funeral for CJ Rehnquist followed it.  The funerals for Presidents Reagan and Ford (at the National Cathedral (Episcopal)) did not follow it.  In any event, my point simply was that this is a good thing and not the norm among major public officials.  If it is now the required practice in Catholic churches, all the better.
It has certainly been the case since white (for resurrection) replaced black as the liturgical color of funerals. That was 1970, I believe.

Peace,
Michael
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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #157 on: February 20, 2016, 01:21:41 PM »
How difficult must it be to preside and preach at one's father's funeral!

When my father died of terminal cancer ten years ago he had become an Associate member of the congregation I was serving.  Most of his caregivers in the final weeks were members of that congregation.  His burial was to take place in the church cemetery.

The Eucharistic Funeral was held in that congregation. His primary pastor preached and I presided.   

It was not easy, but it was less difficult than I anticipated because Christ's table of life, spread before the Last Enemy, assures us that He has trampled down Death by death.  His Presence is overwhelming and His mercy endures forever.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:31:21 PM by J. Thomas Shelley »
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James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #158 on: February 20, 2016, 01:28:28 PM »
I think that it very common for Roman Catholic priests to officiate at the funerals of their family members. It would seem for them awkward not to.

I also believe that for Roman Catholics the pall is always used once the body is inside the church.

It was indeed an excellent example of evangelical catholic witness to Jesus Christ! There is very little that I would quibble with. Grand conduct of the liturgy and brilliant proclamation!

Peace, JOHN


Indeed. 

Michael Slusser

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #159 on: February 20, 2016, 01:29:01 PM »
One of the ponderables, Don, is the engagement/disengagement of the pastor/priest in what he says and does during the Divine Service/Mass.  Do I (as a pastor and baptized person) consider my own sin during the Public Confession?  Am I not in pronouncing Absolution, bringing the grace of God to myself?  In proclaiming the message of salvation, am I not hearing and internalizing what I am proclaiming?  Do I not receive the Holy Meal I have consecrated for my own forgiveness, strength and connection to the communion of saints?  Am I not sent forth to be in mission at the Benediction I pronounce?

While it is no doubt possible to state that a pastor/priest at the funeral of a loved one might desire to be in a solely receiving role, it is also possible that the same pastor/priest can receive as well as give by participating actively.

Dave Benke
A lot of what you say makes no sense to me at all. When does the presider/pastor NOT consider his own sin? Don't you always listen for and hear the message of salvation, whether you're in the pew or the pulpit?

I and other priests have made a prudential judgment when burying our parents: I presided at my father's funeral, but asked a close family friend to preside at my mother's.

Finally, at a Catholic funeral, the opening rites around the reception of the body normally displace the Penitential Rite. The same is true on other occasions when Mass proper is preceded by a substantial pre-Mass ritual, e.g., Palm Sunday; reception of those to be baptized during the Mass; the Easter Vigil light service.

Peace,
Michael
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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #160 on: February 20, 2016, 01:33:04 PM »
I DVR'd the funeral on C-SPAN (I'm sure you can stream it online from them as well).

1.  Inside the basilica, the pall replaced the flag over the casket.

2.  Father Scalia  (the celebrant and preacher), at the beginning of his funeral homily, thanked Cardinal Wuerl (archbishop of Washington) and the bishop of Arlington (VA) for allowing this parish funeral to be held at the cathedral basilica, to accommodate the large crowd.  I haven't researched further, but it certainly sounds like Father Scalia was parish pastor to his father--in the Catholic context of multiple priests to a parish.  The cardinal was part of the procession, along with Father Scalia and the deacon/subdeacon of the mass and the usual acolytes etc.  I was wondering if they might use the extraordinary, but it was the ordinary form of the mass.  White paraments as a result.  The EF traditionalists have an attachment to black for funeral masses.

3.  After these introductory pleasantries, Father Scalia said they were all here because of one man...Jesus of Nazareth.  Of course his rhetorical gimmick was to lead you to believe he was talking about his father (a man loved by some, reviled by others, etc).  I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but it didn't sound like a eulogy for his father.  It was a Christian proclamation of the sure and certain hope of the resurrection to eternal life.  I'm thinking that Father Scalia realized the unique opportunity presented him to proclaim the Gospel to a wide audience.  Personally, I don't know that I could have done it myself.  I know I had no interest in giving a eulogy at my father's funeral--I left that to others.

Sterling Spatz

This funeral sounds much like the funerals in our church.  Very light on eulogy (looking back and about the person and what the person did) and very heavy on Jesus and Gospel (looking forward and about Christ and what He did for us).

... Fletch

James_Gale

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #161 on: February 20, 2016, 01:41:46 PM »
One of the ponderables, Don, is the engagement/disengagement of the pastor/priest in what he says and does during the Divine Service/Mass.  Do I (as a pastor and baptized person) consider my own sin during the Public Confession?  Am I not in pronouncing Absolution, bringing the grace of God to myself?  In proclaiming the message of salvation, am I not hearing and internalizing what I am proclaiming?  Do I not receive the Holy Meal I have consecrated for my own forgiveness, strength and connection to the communion of saints?  Am I not sent forth to be in mission at the Benediction I pronounce?

While it is no doubt possible to state that a pastor/priest at the funeral of a loved one might desire to be in a solely receiving role, it is also possible that the same pastor/priest can receive as well as give by participating actively.

Dave Benke
A lot of what you say makes no sense to me at all. When does the presider/pastor NOT consider his own sin? Don't you always listen for and hear the message of salvation, whether you're in the pew or the pulpit?

I and other priests have made a prudential judgment when burying our parents: I presided at my father's funeral, but asked a close family friend to preside at my mother's.

Finally, at a Catholic funeral, the opening rites around the reception of the body normally displace the Penitential Rite. The same is true on other occasions when Mass proper is preceded by a substantial pre-Mass ritual, e.g., Palm Sunday; reception of those to be baptized during the Mass; the Easter Vigil light service.

Peace,
Michael


Maybe I'm misreading this, but it looks to me as if you and Bp. Benke are saying much the same thing.

MaddogLutheran

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #162 on: February 20, 2016, 01:42:03 PM »

This funeral sounds much like the funerals in our church.  Very light on eulogy (looking back and about the person and what the person did) and very heavy on Jesus and Gospel (looking forward and about Christ and what He did for us).

... Fletch
Yes.  I skipped up through the homily, but I imagine there will be more "liturgy" when they get past it.  The opening was just the procession to the hymn "O God our Help in Ages Past", incensing of the altar, opening remarks by Cardinal Wuerl, and then the invocation and collect for the dead chanted by Father Scalia.  They moved right into the lessons and the Gospel.  Justice Thomas read the second lesson.  I was unsure how Catholics handle a funeral during Lent, but the Gospel verse unsurprisingly did not include an alleluia.

I imagine the eucharistic prayer will be the Roman canon, as the Scalia family has an affinity for the extraordinary form of the Roman rite.  I also imagine everything has been/will be by the rubrics because of this.  I don't expect to find any eulogizing of the deceased during the mass (a rubric no-no)--as was the case during Ted Kennedy's funeral (which I also watched).  I'm wasn't yet born for JFK's funeral, which would have been the extraordinary (only) form.  I realize that bending the rubrics is sometimes a pastoral consideration.

Sterling Spatz
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 01:45:31 PM by MaddogLutheran »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #163 on: February 20, 2016, 02:37:53 PM »
It was indeed an excellent example of evangelical catholic witness to Jesus Christ! There is very little that I would quibble with. Grand conduct of the liturgy and brilliant proclamation!

Yes, it was very good Gospel message, even with the reference to indulgence, allusions to purgatory and praying for his purification, and the quite Lutheran description of the Real Presence.  ;)

Unfortunately, as is usual in most Christian funeral homilies, no mention of the physical resurrection. Jeff Gibbs still has a lot of work to do. "Heaven's OK, but itís not the end of the world."
Don Kirchner

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mariemeyer

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Re: R.I.P Justice Scalia
« Reply #164 on: February 20, 2016, 02:44:36 PM »
I did not say that it was strange.  I said that it must be difficult.  I'll leave it to you to ponder the rest.

Ah, thank you for the correction. That better makes the point that perhaps the gracious thing would be to allow the son to be a mourner with the family.



What if the son wanted to conduct the funeral mass for his father?  Is there any indication the son felt he was not allowed to be a mourner?

Marie