Author Topic: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase  (Read 3821 times)


Steven W Bohler

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2015, 08:56:53 PM »
http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Texts-Special-Occasions-Nesper/dp/B005WKHFNI

The Fort Wayne seminary also used to have a reprint for sale in the bookstore.  I loaned my copy out to someone (forgot who) several years ago and it never came back.  So I bought a copy on eBay.  It does come in handy.

LCMS87

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 09:45:27 PM »
Boris, I've always been a "three year guy".  It is what I grew up with and it is what my congregation's have used.  I love it, but....  (You probably saw that coming.)  My parents grew up with the one year lectionary, the Sundays after Trinity, Ad Te Levavi, Populus Zion, Gaudete, Rorate Coeli, the -Gesima Sundays.  What a sturdy foundation in the Word was someone given who ordered their days in that lectionary! 

I don't ever see me not following the three year lectionary.  But I have contemplated switching, and I believe this could be a way of doing it: follow the three year pattern, then do the one year for three consecutive years, then you can go back to the three year and be in step with the other congregations.  I know that is weird, but consider who it is who thought that idea up. 

The appeal of the one year lectionary is that you know what is coming!  Year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (get my drift?) God's Word is spoken into your ears and you know it.  You know the lessons for the Sundays of the church year.  You know the Collects of the Day. 

Which is better?  Knowing a little very well or knowing a lot not very well?  I'm not sure. 

Jeremy

I've only ever used the three year lectionary as well.

One suggestion I read a few years ago was to utilize the one year lectionary from Advent through Trinity Sunday and then switch to the appropriate three year lectionary through the end of the church year.  The pastors who were talking about it were giving it serious consideration, but I don't know if any of them tried it.  The idea was to get the benefit of repetition from the one year and the benefit of the semi-continuous reading of the synoptics through the post-Pentecost Sundays.  I think some adjustments to the three year portion were thought necessary to avoid duplication, but don't recall the details.

It was interesting to think about, but not inviting enough to prompt me to do things differently than I've been doing them for so many years.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2015, 10:51:00 PM »
Some folks from Luther Seminary have created a four-year "Narrative Lectionary".


https://www.workingpreacher.org/narrative_faqs.aspx
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

John Mundinger

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2015, 07:51:17 AM »
A nice article by Pr. Andrew Preus.

Advent is here, and Christmas is approaching. Itís very easy for us to overlook Advent because of Christmas. This is a bit unfortunate in a way, and in another way it is actually very fitting....

Thanks for sharing this article.

John the Baptist was the original "Grinch who stole Christmas" and Christmas should stay stolen until Christmas Eve.

How legalistic of you. Antinomians always end up in the law.

So, John the Baptist was the original antinomian, too?  Interesting.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2015, 08:02:53 AM »
A nice article by Pr. Andrew Preus.

Advent is here, and Christmas is approaching. Itís very easy for us to overlook Advent because of Christmas. This is a bit unfortunate in a way, and in another way it is actually very fitting....

Thanks for sharing this article.

John the Baptist was the original "Grinch who stole Christmas" and Christmas should stay stolen until Christmas Eve.

How legalistic of you. Antinomians always end up in the law.

So, John the Baptist was the original antinomian, too?  Interesting.

Mr. Mundinger,

That is not what was written.  Perhaps you need to go back and read it again.

John Mundinger

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2015, 08:38:04 AM »
A nice article by Pr. Andrew Preus.

Advent is here, and Christmas is approaching. Itís very easy for us to overlook Advent because of Christmas. This is a bit unfortunate in a way, and in another way it is actually very fitting....

Thanks for sharing this article.

John the Baptist was the original "Grinch who stole Christmas" and Christmas should stay stolen until Christmas Eve.

How legalistic of you. Antinomians always end up in the law.

So, John the Baptist was the original antinomian, too?  Interesting.

Mr. Mundinger,

That is not what was written.  Perhaps you need to go back and read it again.

I know what was written.  I do not believe that John the Baptist was preaching only Law.  Yet, Pr. Kirchner used my post to demonstrate his accusation - false accusation - that I am antinomian and, as all antinomians do, I returned to the Law.  So, if my original post was antinomian, then John the Baptist must have been one, too.

Now, I'd invite you to think about my first post in the context of this thread.  John the Baptist is at the heart of the message appropriate for the Advent season - especially for those of us who follow the three-year lectionary.  And, the Advent message stands in stark contrast to the way in which commercial interests have co-opted the Advent and Christmas seasons.  Now, add a little Dr. Zeuss.  The Grinch tried to steal Christmas.  He failed because, in the story, Christmas was something other than the trappings.  Like in the story, John the Baptist stole all of the trappings - he was the original Grinch - and only the real story remains.  That story calls us to repentance.  That story fills us with hope.  And, in response, we wait in prayerful, confident expectation for Christ's return.  We wait, with Thanksgiving, because Christ already has come to each of us as personal Savior and Lord.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2015, 11:45:28 AM »
 Can you show me where Rev. Kirchner wrote about John the Baptist in the quote you embedded above (in your Reply #34, from 7:52 AM today)?

« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 04:21:27 PM by Richard Johnson »

John Mundinger

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2015, 02:17:39 PM »

My post was a reference to John the Baptist and his message.  That post can only equate with antinomianism if John preached an antinomian message.  He did not.  Moreover, there is nothing in my explanation of that post that equates with antinomianism, either.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 04:22:00 PM by Richard Johnson »
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2015, 02:28:16 PM »
Of course John was no antinomian.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 04:22:30 PM by Richard Johnson »
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John Mundinger

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2015, 02:32:05 PM »

I made no such claim.  I only referenced his Advent message. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 04:22:51 PM by Richard Johnson »
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Richard Johnson

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2015, 04:24:07 PM »
Now it's my turn. I've just removed a bunch of unedifying junk. In most cases, I've removed snarky remarks from individual posts and left the substance. You can study this carefully and see how it might be possible to have a conversation without hurling negative assertions at one another.

The Lord is near at hand, after all.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Boris

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2015, 05:18:17 PM »
Some folks from Luther Seminary have created a four-year "Narrative Lectionary".


https://www.workingpreacher.org/narrative_faqs.aspx

I visited the website and watched the video.  It was an interesting perspective.  Perhaps I am not understanding it properly, but it sounded rather confusing to me.  Is he advocating dropping the Gospel reading entirely? Surely I must be misunderstanding him if that is the case. I can see the importance of Old Testament readings.  He makes a good case for those.  But I cannot endorse dropping the Gospel readings or shortening them.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding him?

Weedon

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2015, 06:22:47 PM »
Dear Brother Boris,

The One Year Series in LSB is a gentle updating of the lectionary that was quite common across Northern Europe prior to the Reformation. Most of it is in common with Rome's codification at Trent but with some minor displacements that sometimes run for several weeks before linking back up together again.

The Old Testament readings are the novelty in the series...sort of. The historic series had just an Epistle and a Gospel. But occasionally you had to announce, as you'll note on Christmas Eve, that the Epistle was from Isaiah!

The three year series all took their genesis from Vatican II's attempt at reconstructing something akin to the lectio continua of the ancient church (your own Eastern lectionary has vestiges of this; and you can spot some holdovers in the Western rite when you look at the Introits for the Trinity Season and note the order of the Psalms cited simply climbing up numerically).

I have lived with the One Year for decades now, and I certainly remember when it was THE lectionary for us. The LSB lectionaries include an interesting reflection that the time may welll come again and perhaps be upon us when the return to the one year is desirable for catechetical reasons. When you are facing Biblical illiteracy in our people, is it best solved by giving them more or by feeding them much of the same? The thought is that the one year provides a sturdy scaffolding or outline of basic Biblical literacy that then the daily Bible reading in the home or church's daily prayer (our Treasury) fills in.

For those who have not tried it, I do encourage giving it a chance. It is amazing how well it works. Just a brief example: Lent, the training ground for those who wish to be Christians. First week, we learn that we have an enemy who likes to parade around as a friend (the Temptations of Christ), but then right away, Reminscere, we learn that in addition we have our dearest and truest friend who sometimes seems to treat us as an enemy (The Healing of the Canaanite Woman's daughter). The third week (Oculi) we learn the fatal danger of confounding the two (This man casts out demons by Beelzebul!). Anywho, the return of the regular readings gives a distinct character to each Sunday and you greet its yearly return as an old friend.

The importance of learning to read each Gospel in its own light is not diminished by such an approach. Rather, you attend to Matthew's treatment of the Transfiguration rather than to Luke or Mark's because THAT'S the pericope for that feast. But when the reading is from Luke, the Lucan themes should be what's highlighted.

Hope that's of some use.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 08:54:44 PM by Weedon »

readselerttoo

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Re: Advent Decreasing that Christmas may Increase
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2015, 06:38:03 PM »
Some folks from Luther Seminary have created a four-year "Narrative Lectionary".


https://www.workingpreacher.org/narrative_faqs.aspx

I visited the website and watched the video.  It was an interesting perspective.  Perhaps I am not understanding it properly, but it sounded rather confusing to me.  Is he advocating dropping the Gospel reading entirely? Surely I must be misunderstanding him if that is the case. I can see the importance of Old Testament readings.  He makes a good case for those.  But I cannot endorse dropping the Gospel readings or shortening them.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding him?



Maybe you are not misunderstanding.  Where in the video are the remarks about making the Gospel readings an option spoken?  I'd like to know because the ELCA leadership (be that in Chicago or at the seminary) tends to distance itself from the scandalous nature of the Gospel and lean towards a more or less compromise with an OT hermeneutic in effect cancelling out the distinctive nature of the Gospel in the New.  In other words, the basis of Christ's death becomes de-throned while a more or less return to Judaism is set up in place of the cross. 


Opinion:  It is my fear that for the sake of political correctness we should compromise on the ascendancy of the specific Gospel message that only come from Christ and him crucified.  Does tolerance and PC trump the scandal of the cross?  Many in the ELCA would like to see this happen.  What happens when the unique message of Christ and him crucified is tamed down so as to finally de-power it?  What happens to the Church when for the sake of PC the cross of Jesus becomes secondary?  Answer:  It is no longer the Church.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 06:49:57 PM by readselerttoo »