Author Topic: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth  (Read 65920 times)

George Erdner

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #660 on: February 19, 2016, 09:03:04 PM »

When I went to Europe four years after the end of WWII, there were crossing places between France, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria and West Germany where one had to show passports, but there no walls between the countries.  Passports had to be shown when disembarking from ships or when the train went from one country to another, but I have no memory of barbed wires along the boundaries between nations.  In time the Russians built the Berlin wall, but there was no wall between the French and the Germans. Might there be a lesson here?

Marie

 

There might. The question is, what might that lesson be? In 1949, perhaps the surviving Europeans didn't care about people crossing their borders. Or perhaps there wasn't a problem with Germans sneaking huge amounts of illegal drugs into France. Perhaps there wasn't a problem with French or Germans crossing the border illegally. Perhaps different circumstances and different situations are, well, different.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #661 on: February 19, 2016, 09:04:45 PM »

When I went to Europe four years after the end of WWII, there were crossing places between France, Holland, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria and West Germany where one had to show passports, but there no walls between the countries.  Passports had to be shown when disembarking from ships or when the train went from one country to another, but I have no memory of barbed wires along the boundaries between nations.  In time the Russians built the Berlin wall, but there was no wall between the French and the Germans. Might there be a lesson here?

Marie

 

There might. The question is, what might that lesson be? In 1949, perhaps the surviving Europeans didn't care about people crossing their borders. Or perhaps there wasn't a problem with Germans sneaking huge amounts of illegal drugs into France. Perhaps there wasn't a problem with French or Germans crossing the border illegally. Perhaps different circumstances and different situations are, well, different.

Yes, there might be a lesson. A geography/history lesson.

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/german-gdr-berlin-the-building-of-the-wall-french-sector-news-photo/542384083
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 09:18:56 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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D. Engebretson

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #662 on: February 19, 2016, 09:23:32 PM »
I don't think Pope Francis is known for his great precision with words, esp. when he speaks off the cuff.  For example, I think if Pope Benedict were the current pope and had been asked this question, my guess is that he would have responded with sharper and greater theological precision....

Both popes are products of German theological training.  Benedict, however, seemed like more of an an academic theologian, and a prolific theological writer, which may explain his tendency toward greater precision with words.
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peter_speckhard

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #663 on: February 20, 2016, 12:38:06 AM »
There is no need for a wall when and where there is no throng of people ignoring the legal means of entry. I don't have bars on the door of my house because nobody threatens to break it down. But if my house were in obvious danger of being broken into, or if there were a clear history of people kicking in the doors of my house, I would install bars on the doors. People tsk-tsking my decision to do so by pointing to other people who do not bar their doors would be wasting their breath. Similarly, pointing out that neighboring countries in Europe do not need walls because people show their passports at checkpoints says nothing whatsoever about our situtation, which is entirely a problem of people going around the checkpoints and not showing their passports. But I agree, if every Mexican coming into the nation would use the legal means of entry, I would oppose the building of a wall forcing them to use the legal means of entry.

It has nothing to do with wanting to keep Mexicans out. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. I love the melting pot and the idea that immigrants want to come here. But if there is a problem with illegal immigration, and it appears there is, why on earth would anyone oppose the building of a wall (with many doors in it where people could come through legally) to solve the problem of illegal immigration?

All that having been said, I don't really care that much about a wall. What I care about is people ascribing base motives to those who do care about wall.

Charles Austin

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #664 on: February 20, 2016, 04:13:42 AM »
David Brooks (no raging "liberal", remember) has an op-ed column in The New York Times about the "wall." Some excerpts:

"The number of illegal immigrants flowing into this country is dropping, not rising. The flow of total immigrants peaked in 2005 and has been dropping since. The share of immigrants coming from Latin America is falling sharply. Since 2008, more immigrants have come from Asia than Latin America, and the disparity is growing."

"There are more Mexicans leaving the United States than coming in. According to the Pew Research Center, there was a net outflow of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014. If Trump builds his wall, he’ll lock more Mexican immigrants in than he’ll keep out."

"Trump plays up the alleged threat of crime committed by immigrants. But the overall evidence is clear. Immigrants make American streets safer. Roughly 1.6 percent of immigrant males between ages 18 and 39 wind up incarcerated, compared with 3.3 percent of native-born American men of the same age. Among native-born men without a high school diploma, about 11 percent are incarcerated. Among similarly educated Mexican, Guatemalan and Salvadoran men here, only 2 or 3 percent get incarcerated."

"One study of 103 cities between 1994 and 2004 found that violent crime rates decreased as the concentration of immigrants increased. Numerous studies have shown that a big share of the drop in crime rates in the 1990s is a result of the surge in immigration."

"Trump plays up the threat of terrorism. But the real threat is that our border agencies spend so much time tracking down people who want to be gardeners that they don’t have the resources to track down the people who want to be suicide bombers. Fighting terrorism by going after the whole swath of immigration policy is like fighting germs with a sledgehammer."

"There’s a reason Republicans from Reagan to Bush supported reasonably open immigration policies. They are and have always been good for America."

"A new summary of the research from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine found that immigrants are integrating into society as well as ever. The bulk of the evidence shows that immigrants have a hugely positive effect on total American G.D.P. while having little effect on overall wages. The surge in Asian immigration will bring a gigantic number of highly skilled people, who end up with higher education levels than the American average, higher productivity levels and higher incomes.   "

And from this humble correspondent: The animus against immigrants is a combination of racism, paranoia, idiocy and misinformation. Certain politicians or would-be politicians hook these things and stir up unfounded fears, ride the sheet-tails of racism, and spread misinformation to preserve the idiocy and build their support from the worst and most erroneous feelings within us.

Retired ELCA Pastor. Former national staff Lutheran Church in America And the Lutheran world Federation, Geneva. Former journalist. Now retired and living in Minneapolis.

George Erdner

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #665 on: February 20, 2016, 08:23:42 AM »
There are different groups of people who enter one country from another. Not everyone who enters another country is an "immigrant". Everyone who enters a country that to them is foreign is an alien in that country. Aliens can be in a foreign country as temporary visitors such as tourists, as workers in a short-term project, as students present for a finite period of time, as criminals seeking to engage in criminal activities, or as immigrants seeking to become permanent residents of the country. Only those who enter a country with the intention of permanent, legal residency and the adoption of the local culture and customs are "immigrants". Those who seek to remain permanently loyal to their former homeland, retaining their former language and culture, are not immigrants. They might not be bad people. A nation might benefit, or even be blessed by the presence of long-term foreign aliens residing in enclaves of foreign culture. But those who are not seeking to become part of the culture of the nation they have moved into are not properly called "immigrants". To truly be an immigrant, one must be at least trying to conform to the laws of the nation one is immigrating to. Entering the country illegally, or entering with the intention of staying permanently by falsely claiming to be only visiting for a short term, is evidence that one is not really an immigrant. That is why the terms "illegal immigrant" or "undocumented immigrant" are oxymorons. There is no such thing.


John Mundinger

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #666 on: February 20, 2016, 08:54:15 AM »
There is no need for a wall when and where there is no throng of people ignoring the legal means of entry.

Didn't Soviet Russia say the same thing about Berlin?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #667 on: February 20, 2016, 08:56:08 AM »
No, I was not suggesting anything remotely close to that.  My point had to do with the definition of the Gospel.  How can one understand the primacy of the Gospel without considering the primacy of Christ.

What is the basis for assuming that Pope Francis does not consider the primacy of Christ?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Team Hesse

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #668 on: February 20, 2016, 09:02:36 AM »

"There’s a reason Republicans from Reagan to Bush supported reasonably open immigration policies. They are and have always been good for America."




It is probably best not to forget that most of the post-WWII anti-immigration rhetoric has its genesis in the labor movement which has been scared of "those people taking our jobs and providing pressure to lower wages and the American way of life." Immigration control has a much longer history with the Democrats than the Republicans.....


Lou

Team Hesse

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #669 on: February 20, 2016, 09:05:16 AM »
No, I was not suggesting anything remotely close to that.  My point had to do with the definition of the Gospel.  How can one understand the primacy of the Gospel without considering the primacy of Christ.

What is the basis for assuming that Pope Francis does not consider the primacy of Christ?


Purgatory and Penitential Satisfaction as taught in the Roman Sacrament of Penance to name two....


Lou

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #670 on: February 20, 2016, 09:10:52 AM »
No, I was not suggesting anything remotely close to that.  My point had to do with the definition of the Gospel.  How can one understand the primacy of the Gospel without considering the primacy of Christ.

What is the basis for assuming that Pope Francis does not consider the primacy of Christ?


Purgatory and Penitential Satisfaction as taught in the Roman Sacrament of Penance to name two....


Lou

To what extent did "purgartory" and "penitential satisfaction", distinct from the primacy of Christ, inform the Pope's comments regarding the wall (or any other of this Pope's comments on complex social/political issues of the day)?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

peter_speckhard

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #671 on: February 20, 2016, 09:27:33 AM »
There is no need for a wall when and where there is no throng of people ignoring the legal means of entry.

Didn't Soviet Russia say the same thing about Berlin?
A wall to keep out people who do not belong there is as innocuous as a door on your house. A wall to keep people who want to leave from leaving is the same as a prison gate. That you can't see the distinction is telling.

There is no animus against Mexicans or anyone else inherent in the desire to have a secure border with Mexico. That Asians outnumber Mexicans in terms of immigration is immaterial; it is not very easy for Asians to come here illegally. Again, the issue is not how many people come here or where they come from, it is whether they come here legally.

   

Team Hesse

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #672 on: February 20, 2016, 09:27:40 AM »
No, I was not suggesting anything remotely close to that.  My point had to do with the definition of the Gospel.  How can one understand the primacy of the Gospel without considering the primacy of Christ.

What is the basis for assuming that Pope Francis does not consider the primacy of Christ?


Purgatory and Penitential Satisfaction as taught in the Roman Sacrament of Penance to name two....


Lou

To what extent did "purgartory" and "penitential satisfaction", distinct from the primacy of Christ, inform the Pope's comments regarding the wall (or any other of this Pope's comments on complex social/political issues of the day)?


Which kingdom are we discussing? I have already stated the Pope does well in issues of law....


Lou

George Erdner

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #673 on: February 20, 2016, 09:28:46 AM »

"There’s a reason Republicans from Reagan to Bush supported reasonably open immigration policies. They are and have always been good for America."




It is probably best not to forget that most of the post-WWII anti-immigration rhetoric has its genesis in the labor movement which has been scared of "those people taking our jobs and providing pressure to lower wages and the American way of life." Immigration control has a much longer history with the Democrats than the Republicans.....


Lou

Is it not "reasonable" that any immigration policy includes a mandatory requirement that all who want to immigrate to America MUST do so in compliance with the law? Changing laws is how one deals with laws one believes are unreasonable. Ignoring them and ignoring the violation of them is not reasonable.

And for the record, the Soviet Union built no walls to keep people out, they built walls to keep their own people IN. That's further evidence of how popular socialism is. Socialist countries build walls to prevent their people from leaving.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:30:18 AM by George Erdner »

James_Gale

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #674 on: February 20, 2016, 09:36:41 AM »

"There’s a reason Republicans from Reagan to Bush supported reasonably open immigration policies. They are and have always been good for America."




It is probably best not to forget that most of the post-WWII anti-immigration rhetoric has its genesis in the labor movement which has been scared of "those people taking our jobs and providing pressure to lower wages and the American way of life." Immigration control has a much longer history with the Democrats than the Republicans.....


Lou

Is it not "reasonable" that any immigration policy includes a mandatory requirement that all who want to immigrate to America MUST do so in compliance with the law? Changing laws is how one deals with laws one believes are unreasonable. Ignoring them and ignoring the violation of them is not reasonable.

And for the record, the Soviet Union built no walls to keep people out, they built walls to keep their own people IN. That's further evidence of how popular socialism is. Socialist countries build walls to prevent their people from leaving.


You're right.  And it still happens.  Cuba.  North Korea.  And Venezuela, which uses (among other things) draconian capital controls to keep people from emigrating.