Author Topic: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth  (Read 68649 times)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44912
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #615 on: February 18, 2016, 10:46:54 AM »
Ha!  That memory tortures me everyday BUT remember that before being the founder of cities Cain was a rule following farmer.  From farmer to city dweller.  The grandchildren of the farmer are now city dwellers. :-[


What rule was he following? Up to that point in the story, God has commended, "Be fruitful and multiply" and "You can eat from all the trees, except one." There are no reasons given why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. Rules about sacrifices won't be given until Mount Sinai.

At the end of Genesis 3 God curses Adam to work the ground i.e. farming.  It's been understood that Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel doesn't by becoming a shepherd.  That's all.


The Human ('adam) was created to farm the garden God had planted. And, all the animals were brought to the the Human to name them - which is having control over them. From the beginning the Human was a farmer and cared for animals. The curse was that growing food would be harder work than it had been in the garden God had originally given the Human. Actually, Adam was not cursed. The ground was, and the curse was removed in Gen 8:21.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

RevG

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #616 on: February 18, 2016, 12:06:44 PM »
Ha!  That memory tortures me everyday BUT remember that before being the founder of cities Cain was a rule following farmer.  From farmer to city dweller.  The grandchildren of the farmer are now city dwellers. :-[


What rule was he following? Up to that point in the story, God has commended, "Be fruitful and multiply" and "You can eat from all the trees, except one." There are no reasons given why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. Rules about sacrifices won't be given until Mount Sinai.

At the end of Genesis 3 God curses Adam to work the ground i.e. farming.  It's been understood that Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel doesn't by becoming a shepherd.  That's all.


The Human ('adam) was created to farm the garden God had planted. And, all the animals were brought to the the Human to name them - which is having control over them. From the beginning the Human was a farmer and cared for animals. The curse was that growing food would be harder work than it had been in the garden God had originally given the Human. Actually, Adam was not cursed. The ground was, and the curse was removed in Gen 8:21.

I think your understanding is mistaken.  There’s a huge difference between working the ground pre-fall and post fall.  Many have likened this initial task to a gardener and not a farmer.  Notice Genesis 2:16 and Adam’s source of food and then notice Genesis 3:18.  Big difference, eating from a tree (fruit which is natural, is “good”) and eating from the field (bread which is the result human ingenuity).  Lots to think about here.  Also, Adam was cursed along with the ground, just as Eve was cursed with the multiplication of pain in child bearing which is directly related to Adam’s new occupation of a cursed farmer.   More hands will be needed to work the ground.   Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel does not as evidenced by his being a shepherd which relates back to life in the garden.  There’s so much to unpack in these great texts. 

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #617 on: February 18, 2016, 03:17:20 PM »
Ha!  That memory tortures me everyday BUT remember that before being the founder of cities Cain was a rule following farmer.  From farmer to city dweller.  The grandchildren of the farmer are now city dwellers. :-[


What rule was he following? Up to that point in the story, God has commended, "Be fruitful and multiply" and "You can eat from all the trees, except one." There are no reasons given why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. Rules about sacrifices won't be given until Mount Sinai.

At the end of Genesis 3 God curses Adam to work the ground i.e. farming.  It's been understood that Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel doesn't by becoming a shepherd.  That's all.


The Human ('adam) was created to farm the garden God had planted. And, all the animals were brought to the the Human to name them - which is having control over them. From the beginning the Human was a farmer and cared for animals. The curse was that growing food would be harder work than it had been in the garden God had originally given the Human. Actually, Adam was not cursed. The ground was, and the curse was removed in Gen 8:21.

I think your understanding is mistaken.  There’s a huge difference between working the ground pre-fall and post fall.  Many have likened this initial task to a gardener and not a farmer.  Notice Genesis 2:16 and Adam’s source of food and then notice Genesis 3:18.  Big difference, eating from a tree (fruit which is natural, is “good”) and eating from the field (bread which is the result human ingenuity).  Lots to think about here.  Also, Adam was cursed along with the ground, just as Eve was cursed with the multiplication of pain in child bearing which is directly related to Adam’s new occupation of a cursed farmer.   More hands will be needed to work the ground.   Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel does not as evidenced by his being a shepherd which relates back to life in the garden.  There’s so much to unpack in these great texts.


So, are we to believe farming is a less worthy vocation than sheep herding?


Be careful what you say with your mouth full....


Lou (its lunch time)

RevG

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #618 on: February 18, 2016, 04:08:27 PM »
Ha!  That memory tortures me everyday BUT remember that before being the founder of cities Cain was a rule following farmer.  From farmer to city dweller.  The grandchildren of the farmer are now city dwellers. :-[


What rule was he following? Up to that point in the story, God has commended, "Be fruitful and multiply" and "You can eat from all the trees, except one." There are no reasons given why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. Rules about sacrifices won't be given until Mount Sinai.

At the end of Genesis 3 God curses Adam to work the ground i.e. farming.  It's been understood that Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel doesn't by becoming a shepherd.  That's all.


The Human ('adam) was created to farm the garden God had planted. And, all the animals were brought to the the Human to name them - which is having control over them. From the beginning the Human was a farmer and cared for animals. The curse was that growing food would be harder work than it had been in the garden God had originally given the Human. Actually, Adam was not cursed. The ground was, and the curse was removed in Gen 8:21.

I think your understanding is mistaken.  There’s a huge difference between working the ground pre-fall and post fall.  Many have likened this initial task to a gardener and not a farmer.  Notice Genesis 2:16 and Adam’s source of food and then notice Genesis 3:18.  Big difference, eating from a tree (fruit which is natural, is “good”) and eating from the field (bread which is the result human ingenuity).  Lots to think about here.  Also, Adam was cursed along with the ground, just as Eve was cursed with the multiplication of pain in child bearing which is directly related to Adam’s new occupation of a cursed farmer.   More hands will be needed to work the ground.   Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel does not as evidenced by his being a shepherd which relates back to life in the garden.  There’s so much to unpack in these great texts.


So, are we to believe farming is a less worthy vocation than sheep herding?


Be careful what you say with your mouth full....


Lou (its lunch time)

Are we to believe that city dwellers are less worthy than country dwellers? 

Be careful what you say about the values of limited government...

Scott (who just ate toasted bread with peanut butter (thanks farmers!!)) ;D

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #619 on: February 18, 2016, 05:14:49 PM »
Ha!  That memory tortures me everyday BUT remember that before being the founder of cities Cain was a rule following farmer.  From farmer to city dweller.  The grandchildren of the farmer are now city dwellers. :-[


What rule was he following? Up to that point in the story, God has commended, "Be fruitful and multiply" and "You can eat from all the trees, except one." There are no reasons given why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's. Rules about sacrifices won't be given until Mount Sinai.

At the end of Genesis 3 God curses Adam to work the ground i.e. farming.  It's been understood that Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel doesn't by becoming a shepherd.  That's all.


The Human ('adam) was created to farm the garden God had planted. And, all the animals were brought to the the Human to name them - which is having control over them. From the beginning the Human was a farmer and cared for animals. The curse was that growing food would be harder work than it had been in the garden God had originally given the Human. Actually, Adam was not cursed. The ground was, and the curse was removed in Gen 8:21.

I think your understanding is mistaken.  There’s a huge difference between working the ground pre-fall and post fall.  Many have likened this initial task to a gardener and not a farmer.  Notice Genesis 2:16 and Adam’s source of food and then notice Genesis 3:18.  Big difference, eating from a tree (fruit which is natural, is “good”) and eating from the field (bread which is the result human ingenuity).  Lots to think about here.  Also, Adam was cursed along with the ground, just as Eve was cursed with the multiplication of pain in child bearing which is directly related to Adam’s new occupation of a cursed farmer.   More hands will be needed to work the ground.   Cain accepts this as his lot in life whereas Abel does not as evidenced by his being a shepherd which relates back to life in the garden.  There’s so much to unpack in these great texts.


So, are we to believe farming is a less worthy vocation than sheep herding?


Be careful what you say with your mouth full....


Lou (its lunch time)

Are we to believe that city dwellers are less worthy than country dwellers? 

Be careful what you say about the values of limited government...

Scott (who just ate toasted bread with peanut butter (thanks farmers!!)) ;D


I don't understand the correlation you are attempting. I know waaay too many country dwellers who are also fans of big government and I know there are city dwellers who are not fans of big government.


 I readily admit to being a fan of limited government and a country dweller. So?


You did not address my question.


Lou

Michael Slusser

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5615
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #620 on: February 18, 2016, 11:10:16 PM »
I've been looking for a transcript of the interview on the plane returning to Rome where Pope Francis answered a question about Donald Trump and his wall proposal. I found it at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome-85821/

Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?
 
Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.


Peace,
Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Charles Austin

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 15106
    • View Profile
    • Charles is Coloring
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #621 on: February 19, 2016, 04:11:31 AM »
Thank you, Fr. Slusser. Blessings to the pope for saying we should be building bridges instead of walls.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis.

LutherMan

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #622 on: February 19, 2016, 05:51:44 AM »
Thank you, Fr. Slusser. Blessings to the pope for saying we should be building bridges instead of walls.
PHOTOS: Pope’s border wall around Vatican

http://www.theamericanmirror.com/photos-pope-calls-for-us-to-embrace-illegals-while-maintaining-massive-wall-around-vatican/

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #623 on: February 19, 2016, 08:23:33 AM »
Pope Francis:...And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel.

Would someone like to unpack this statement theologically?  Aside from debates about immigration and the pros and cons about the flow of people over the boarder, what exactly is the Pope declaring?  Also, how should we see this in light of the difference of the kingdoms of right and left?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 08:25:15 AM by D. Engebretson »
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

John Mundinger

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • John 8:31-32
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #624 on: February 19, 2016, 08:31:00 AM »
I've been looking for a transcript of the interview on the plane returning to Rome where Pope Francis answered a question about Donald Trump and his wall proposal. I found it at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome-85821/

Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?
 
Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.


Peace,
Michael

I appreciate that Pope Francis seems to understand a basic principle that is lost on many American Christians.  To the extent that there is a nexus between Scripture and the U.S. Constitution, it is the commandment to love neighbor as self.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 09:11:56 AM by John Mundinger »
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Boris

  • ALPB Forum Regular
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #625 on: February 19, 2016, 08:35:11 AM »
In the interest of sticking to real facts and avoiding hyperbole, I submit the following information about the exterior walls of the city-state of Vatican City:

Being separated from the city, on the west bank of the Tiber river, the area was an outcrop of the city that was protected by being included within the walls of Leo IV (847–55), and later expanded by the current fortification walls, built under Paul III (1534–49), Pius IV (1559–65) and Urban VIII (1623–44).

Please note that the Vatican's walls are not of recent or even modern construction.  The "newest" portion of the Vatican walls are nearly 400 years old.  The older sections are nearly 1300 years old. 

We would do well to remember that throughout its long history, the Vatican has been attacked from time to time by hostile military forces.  The barbaric Germanic tribes invaded Rome in the 5th century. Attila the Hun came next, followed by a Byzantine invasion of Italy under Justinian. There was conflict in the 14th century with the French crown that resulted in the Avingnon Papacy.  There were the wars of the Papal States during the Renaissance and Reformation periods.  Those walls were needed historically and have served Rome well.  To compare those defensive walls with Donald Trump's idea of building a modern version of the Great Wall of China on the southern border of the United States of America is comparing apples to oranges.  It just isn't the same.  Put it in perspective.

We would do well to remember that today the walls do NOT completely encircle the Vatican.  They do still exist on some sides of the Vatican, but not around the approach to St. Peter's Basilica.  A white line painted on the ground is all that separates St. Peter's Square from the territory of the nation of Italy.  There is no wall, fence, crossing guard or checkpoint there.  Anyone can freely cross and a passport is not required.

The pope has given us a lot to ponder in the following comment (Thank you, Father Slusser!):  And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel.

And if you think about it, the Pope is quite correct.  The Gospel teaches us about showing mercy, especially showing mercy to strangers, foreigners, and outcasts.  Think of the parable of the Good Samaritan.  It is nothing but thinly veiled Social Darwinism to slam the door in people's faces and say, "I have mine.  You stay out."  That reminds me more of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.  Remember how Lazarus sat outside the gates of the Rich Man and how the Rich Man was so cold and callous he didn't even notice Lazarus sitting there, starving and covered in sores?  Read the story again and notice who ended up in hell.

Remember our Lord said the love of money is the root of all evil and that it is exceedingly difficult for a rich man to enter heaven.  Perhaps our Lord meant exactly what He said, without any sophisticated attempts to explain it all away?

May God have mercy on us all.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 08:37:18 AM by Boris »

D. Engebretson

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5016
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #626 on: February 19, 2016, 08:44:41 AM »
I am not a Donald Trump supporter, so my comments are not attached, as such, to him.

But I wonder if the question about the building of a wall on the boarder should not be seen in a context a bit more broadly than just slamming the door on people and a complete lack of mercy.  I am not saying that the wall is or is not the best idea to address the immigration issue.  But I do question whether it is right to deem it as only an act of selfish exclusion and has nothing to do with concerns some might have about boarder security.  And, as the pope has done, to deem those who make such suggestions as automatically excluding that person as Christian.
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #627 on: February 19, 2016, 08:44:52 AM »
I've been looking for a transcript of the interview on the plane returning to Rome where Pope Francis answered a question about Donald Trump and his wall proposal. I found it at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome-85821/

Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?
 
Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.


Peace,
Michael

I appreciate that Pope Benedict seems to understand a basic principle that is lost on many American Christians.  To the extent that there is a nexus between Scripture and the U.S. Constitution, it is the commandment to love neighbor as self.


Francis, John, the current Pope is Francis. The Pope and his people do understand law. Never been any question about that. But some of us would argue for primacy for the Gospel.


Lou

John Mundinger

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 5964
  • John 8:31-32
    • View Profile
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #628 on: February 19, 2016, 09:13:04 AM »
I've been looking for a transcript of the interview on the plane returning to Rome where Pope Francis answered a question about Donald Trump and his wall proposal. I found it at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome-85821/

Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?
 
Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.


Peace,
Michael

I appreciate that Pope Benedict seems to understand a basic principle that is lost on many American Christians.  To the extent that there is a nexus between Scripture and the U.S. Constitution, it is the commandment to love neighbor as self.


Francis, John, the current Pope is Francis. The Pope and his people do understand law. Never been any question about that. But some of us would argue for primacy for the Gospel.


Lou

Thanks for the catch.  And, fwiw, I think Pope Francis does understand the primacy of the Gospel.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #629 on: February 19, 2016, 09:33:53 AM »
I've been looking for a transcript of the interview on the plane returning to Rome where Pope Francis answered a question about Donald Trump and his wall proposal. I found it at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome-85821/

Phil Pullella, Reuters: Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigration. On the other side of the border, there is a very tough electoral battle. One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border. He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?
 
Pope Francis: Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.


Peace,
Michael

I appreciate that Pope Benedict seems to understand a basic principle that is lost on many American Christians.  To the extent that there is a nexus between Scripture and the U.S. Constitution, it is the commandment to love neighbor as self.


Francis, John, the current Pope is Francis. The Pope and his people do understand law. Never been any question about that. But some of us would argue for primacy for the Gospel.


Lou

Thanks for the catch.  And, fwiw, I think Pope Francis does understand the primacy of the Gospel.


You are entitled to your opinion.


Lou