Author Topic: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth  (Read 64732 times)

John Mundinger

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #420 on: January 04, 2016, 11:05:20 AM »
Of myself, I am incapable of living a life of repentance.  Are you?

Read the "book," Mr. Mundinger. For that statement manifests a complete lack of knowledge of what repentance is, resulting in a rejection of the Gospel and despair.

Does that mean your answer to the question I asked is "yes".
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #421 on: January 04, 2016, 11:13:51 AM »
The term "social justice" has now been hijacked or nuanced to unintelligibility by every state, group, religion and "leader" on earth, none any less than in America.

Please reference your specific definition (or the closest acceptable one that you have found, preferably in Scripture) in order for a socially just conversation to ensue  ;)

(Edited to correct error in quote function usage)

John Mundinger , you must have missed my request.  It still stands.

My apologies, Randy.  I did miss it.

I'm not convinced that the term "social justice" has been hi-jacked as much as it has been negatively nuanced by those who are not compelled to support it.  That said, I used the term because it is established in the vernacular.

It should be apparent by now that I perceive "social justice" is responding positively to the Lord's command to go and do likewise.  And, in my opinion, going and doing likewise informs both how I function, as an individual, in society and how I think our society ought to function.  From that perspective, I do not understand a perspective that, although perhaps willing to make some personal sacrifice on behalf of neighbor yet vigorously defends public policy that perpetuates poverty and all of the indignity that comes with it.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

mariemeyer

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #422 on: January 04, 2016, 11:18:37 AM »
"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

Mr. Mundinger,

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

... Fletch

Please note the underlined by Fletch.  The statement,  "The 3rd use is for believers only,"  clearly suggests their are laws that apply only to believers.   Earlier on this thread it was also stated the 3rd use is a guide for Christians.  Again the implication is that the Law or specific NT laws apply to the Christian in ways the 1st and 2nd do not.

I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law. The Confessions make no mention of laws that apply to believers only.

Marie Meyer

Fletch

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #423 on: January 04, 2016, 11:26:37 AM »
"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

Mr. Mundinger,

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

... Fletch

Please note the underlined by Fletch.  The statement,  "The 3rd use is for believers only,"  clearly suggests their are laws that apply only to believers.   Earlier on this thread it was also stated the 3rd use is a guide for Christians.  Again the implication is that the Law or specific NT laws apply to the Christian in ways the 1st and 2nd do not.

I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law. The Confessions make no mention of laws that apply to believers only.

Marie Meyer

Mrs. Meyer,

Perhaps you could read the thread again and come up with a perspective that some of us think there is law and there is use of law - two different things.  Multiple uses does not have to imply different laws for different people (in my opinion).  There is only God's law in the context we are speaking within but multiple uses, e.g. three, that can have different audiences.

Edit:  Perhaps this will explain why the 3rd use, guide, could be important for Christians.  1 Cor 6 will not be much of a guide for how God prefers us to live for non-Christians, but it will be a great guide for Christians who believe in the authority of God's Word.  (It will also not be much of a curb or mirror for our secular culture as much of it is not against civil law.)

... Fletch
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 11:49:52 AM by Fletch »

mariemeyer

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #424 on: January 04, 2016, 11:58:08 AM »
Mrs. Meyer,

Perhaps you could read the thread again and come up with a perspective that some of us think there is law and there is use of law - two different things.  Multiple uses does not have to imply different laws for different people (in my opinion).  There is only God's law in the context we are speaking within but multiple uses, e.g. three, that can have different audiences.

... Fletch

What are the audiences for God's Law? 

I understand the audience for the law to be sinners, those  who are redeemed and those who do not know Christ as the Son of God who gave His life for them and rose from the dead so that they might again be true children of God.

How preciously do you understand the "third use" of the Law?

I understand the third use of the Law to be the Law as applied to the redeemed who still harbor the old Adam/Eve. The Old Adam/Eve can and will tempt sinners to search the Scriptures for something about self that God has to honor. They are also tempted to misappropriate to self what belongs to God alone.  They are also tempted to misplace their trust in the gifts of God rather than the Giver.

In short, you and I as redeemed children of God do not need more information about the Law or specific laws that apply to different audiences, we need the Law to keep the old Adam/Eve in check. 

Marie 


aletheist

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #425 on: January 04, 2016, 12:03:30 PM »
I understand the third use of the Law to be the Law as applied to the redeemed who still harbor the old Adam/Eve ... In short, you and I as redeemed children of God do not need more information about the Law or specific laws that apply to different audiences, we need the Law to keep the old Adam/Eve in check.
Where exactly has Fletch--or anyone else in this thread--defined the third use of the Law in any other way?
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Michael Slusser

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #426 on: January 04, 2016, 12:05:37 PM »
According to Gallup, The Donald is neck-and-neck with Pope Francis, tied for second Most Admired Man for Americans.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/187922/clinton-admired-woman-record-20th-time.aspx?g_source=Politics&g_medium=lead&g_campaign=tiles

Peace,

Michael
Fr. Michael Slusser
Retired Roman Catholic priest and theologian

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #427 on: January 04, 2016, 12:05:55 PM »
Please note the underlined by Fletch.  The statement,  "The 3rd use is for believers only,"  clearly suggests their are laws that apply only to believers.

No, it does not.

Earlier on this thread it was also stated the 3rd use is a guide for Christians.

So?

Again the implication is that the Law or specific NT laws apply to the Christian in ways the 1st and 2nd do not.

No, it is not.

I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use

Gotta let go of the straw man, Mrs. Meyer, especially in manufactured gotcha cases.
Don Kirchner

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aletheist

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #428 on: January 04, 2016, 12:15:02 PM »
I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law.
One brief mention?  Two entire articles are explicitly devoted to it (FC Ep VI and FC SD VI), and it is also implicit throughout the rest of the Book of Concord.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #429 on: January 04, 2016, 12:19:00 PM »
I understand the third use of the Law to be the Law as applied to the redeemed who still harbor the old Adam/Eve ... In short, you and I as redeemed children of God do not need more information about the Law or specific laws that apply to different audiences, we need the Law to keep the old Adam/Eve in check.
Where exactly has Fletch--or anyone else in this thread--defined the third use of the Law in any other way?


Keeping the old Adam in check is 1st Use and it is needed for all people not just believers. Thus, the understanding of some confessional Lutherans is that the 3rd use says that the first and second uses apply to believers just as they do to unbelievers. Just because we are forgiven sinners doesn't mean that the law is no longer necessary in our lives.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

mariemeyer

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #430 on: January 04, 2016, 12:46:33 PM »
I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law.
One brief mention?  Two entire articles are explicitly devoted to it (FC Ep VI and FC SD VI), and it is also implicit throughout the rest of the Book of Concord.

FC Ep VI  - The Afirmative Theses of FC Ep VI specifically mention the 3rd use in regard to the Old Adam.  The Solid Declaration makes no mention of laws that are directed to a Christian audience. The reference again is to the Old Adam that still clings to our nature, thus Paul writes, "I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do."  Paul knew what was good and what was evil... he did not need information about more laws, he needed the Law to keep the old Adam in check.

So much for my erecting a straw man - the old Adam is not made of straw...His power in like that of an old tyrant. 

I still do not know what laws are directed toward a Christian audience.  They are not explicit in FC EpVI or FC SD VI.   If these laws are implicit in the Book of Concord, I have missed them.  Please instruct me as to where I might find them.

Marie


Steverem

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #431 on: January 04, 2016, 12:54:09 PM »
Uneducated rube here - isn't the Great Commission an example of law specific to believers?  We don't expect non-Christians to follow Jesus' command here, but we do expect Christians to go and make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Seems to me to be exactly the kind of "third use" that Fletch suggests - it's pro-active, a call to disciples to follow in the steps of the Rabbi.

Fletch

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #432 on: January 04, 2016, 12:54:37 PM »
I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law.
One brief mention?  Two entire articles are explicitly devoted to it (FC Ep VI and FC SD VI), and it is also implicit throughout the rest of the Book of Concord.

FC Ep VI  - The Afirmative Theses of FC Ep VI specifically mention the 3rd use in regard to the Old Adam.  The Solid Declaration makes no mention of laws that are directed to a Christian audience. The reference again is to the Old Adam that still clings to our nature, thus Paul writes, "I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do."  Paul knew what was good and what was evil... he did not need information about more laws, he needed the Law to keep the old Adam in check.

So much for my erecting a straw man - the old Adam is not made of straw...His power in like that of an old tyrant. 

I still do not know what laws are directed toward a Christian audience.  They are not explicit in FC EpVI or FC SD VI.   If these laws are implicit in the Book of Concord, I have missed them.  Please instruct me as to where I might find them.

Marie

Mrs. Meyer,

Flip that around.  They will find you if God wants them to, just like everything else God wants you to have or know will find you.  Many are written on your heart, many are written in the Holy Scriptures.  Many will find you via the Pastor's proclamations.  Pray they will find you.

... Fletch

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #433 on: January 04, 2016, 01:09:54 PM »
the old Adam is not made of straw...His power in like that of an old tyrant... 

I still do not know what laws are directed toward a Christian audience. 

And there's your straw man again, Mrs. Meyer. And he's rapidly becoming old.

But now he's got a new straw man who's already old.   ::)

Or is the new old man the same as the old man? Won't get fooled again, Mrs. Meyer.  :o



« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:15:23 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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aletheist

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Re: Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth
« Reply #434 on: January 04, 2016, 01:28:09 PM »
I submit this is an incorrect understanding of what the Confessions say in the one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law.
One brief mention?  Two entire articles are explicitly devoted to it (FC Ep VI and FC SD VI), and it is also implicit throughout the rest of the Book of Concord.
I still do not know what laws are directed toward a Christian audience.  They are not explicit in FC EpVI or FC SD VI.   If these laws are implicit in the Book of Concord, I have missed them.  Please instruct me as to where I might find them.
Please show me where I have claimed that there are laws directed toward a Christian audience.  As quoted above, you incorrectly stated that the Confessions only include "one brief mention of a 3rd use of the Law."  I simply pointed out that this is not the case.
Jon Alan Schmidt, LCMS Layman

"We believe, teach and confess that by conserving the distinction between Law and Gospel as an especially glorious light
with great diligence in the Church, the Word of God is rightly divided according to the admonition of St. Paul." (FC Ep V.2)