Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth

[mariemeyer]

"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

Mr. Mundinger,

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

... Fletch

What laws are for Christians only?  IOW, what in the God's Holy Law was given for believers only?

Marie Meyer

I take it you are not a fan of the 3rd use of the Law as a guide for Christians (e.g. as described by Dr. Joel Biermann, Concordia Seminary, recorded for the iTunes University series on Christian Doctrine).  Your question above does not seem to be directed toward the three uses of the law - it seems directed more toward why the law; I expect you already know the answer to that.

... Fletch

Please answer my question...  I did not ask why the Law. I know the answer to that question.   My request is quite simple. Please provide examples of laws that are directed to Christians only.   Where in Scripture might I find them?

Marie Meyer

[John Mundinger]

Point taken.  But I am more inclined to say "God is in charge of how and when and if prayers are answered" regardless of who is praying for what; that was the intent of my statement when I mentioned relying on God's mercy.  I see the social justice movement as just another way of man wanting to be in charge and, as Sinatra says, have it my way. 

I'm inclined to say that, if we are praying for good government, it makes no sense for us to be supporting policies and politicians based on our selfish interests at the expense of our neighbors.  And, fwiw, there is a lot of "have it my way" in the resistance to the social justice movement.

[Fletch]

Please answer my question...  I did not ask why the Law. I know the answer to that question.   My request is quite simple. Please provide examples of laws that are directed to Christians only.   Where in Scripture might I find them?

Marie Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you may enjoy this article:  https://www.gci.org/law/lawtoday  You may wish to read the entire article so you get the context.  Note, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the GCI - just addressing your question; the short answer is "in the law of Christ".

An excerpt follows.

Edit to add:  I think you would enjoy Dr. Biermann's sessions on Christian Doctrine that I mentioned earlier.  Much of what he teaches is similar to Dr. Robert Kolb's book, The Christian Faith; it is excellent in my opinion - I've read it several times.

... Fletch

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

[John Mundinger]

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

I'm curious how it is possible to both embrace that understanding of the Law of Love and also be opposed to social justice.

[Randy Bosch]

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

I'm curious how it is possible to both embrace that understanding of the Law of Love and also be opposed to social justice.

The term "social justice" has now been hijacked or nuanced to unintelligibility by every state, group, religion and "leader" on earth, none any less than in America.

Please reference your specific definition (or the closest acceptable one that you have found, preferably in Scripture) in order for a socially just conversation to ensue 

(Edited to correct error in quote function usage)

[Fletch]

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

I'm curious how it is possible to both embrace that understanding of the Law of Love and also be opposed to social justice.

In my opinion, we confessional Lutherans will meet our neighbor's needs as best we can as a thankful response for what Christ has done for us.  I think a strong focus on the social justice movement has a high potential for diverting us from all of Christ's teachings and what is of ultimate importance.  Movements require leaders; focus on a leader instead of the message of Christ and what he has done is dangerous.

All sorts of organizations can provide for the physical needs of others; good for them.  Support them as you like, I do.  Vote for whom you like, I do.  But remember which realm you are dealing with.  Christians are told by Jesus:  Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."  I think far to many people think this passage means "go do" rather than "go make disciples".  I think far to many people muddle Law and Gospel, and far more people have little understanding of the two realms and vocation.   I perceive the social justice movement appeals to our sinful man self, causes us to turn inward, and think that we are "doing" something while forgetting that everything comes from Christ.  I certainly support loving neighbor, meeting his expressed needs, and telling him about Jesus.  My concern with the social justice movement is all the unintended consequences that come along with it.  It does little good to fill your belly if you lose your eternal life (Esau).  I see the social justice movement as just one more instant gratification quest by sinful man, that old Adam is powerful in believing it is he that is in charge.  Let's not purposefully reinforce what is already a huge problem - in the individual and in our society. 

As for your curiosity question, would that not be better addressed to the author of what I posted?

... Fletch

[mariemeyer]

Please answer my question...  I did not ask why the Law. I know the answer to that question.   My request is quite simple. Please provide examples of laws that are directed to Christians only.   Where in Scripture might I find them?

Marie Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you may enjoy this article:  https://www.gci.org/law/lawtoday  You may wish to read the entire article so you get the context.  Note, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the GCI - just addressing your question; the short answer is "in the law of Christ".

An excerpt follows.

Edit to add:  I think you would enjoy Dr. Biermann's sessions on Christian Doctrine that I mentioned earlier.  Much of what he teaches is similar to Dr. Robert Kolb's book, The Christian Faith; it is excellent in my opinion - I've read it several times.

... Fletch

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

Is the conclusion you quote by Dr. Kolb or Dr. Biermann?

In any event, I do not understand how or when "the law of Christ" would conflict with laws and principles in the Old Testament because the law of Christ "more fully expresses the will of God?" 

The will of God is that all people every where know, fear, love and trust in the Triune God as the One God by Whom, for Whom in Whom they have their being.

What laws in the OT or what "law of Christ" are not in keeping with the will of God?

Marie Meyer

[Eileen Smith]

When I began serving at MNYS, Bishop Stephen Bouman had as our focus, "Repairers of the Breach."  This was his - and thus our synod's - definition of social justice. And it remains, for me, a good definition of social justice.  Under this banner, monies were raised to build a school in Tanzania and fund other projects in Tanzania -- not only with dollars, but people as well.  Congregations were helped, the poor were served in many ways.  Stephen had a real heart for the poor and was a wonderful teacher and example of ministry.  I agree with Randy Bosch, this phrase has been hijacked to mean all sorts of things.   When I thin of social justice, I do think of these words of Isaiah.   Citing the Great Commission is fine, but just what does it mean to make disciples and teach?  Does it mean evangelism?  Does it mean social ministry?  Can one always separate the two?  In a phrase from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, "God uses us in his dealing with others."  I don't think God intended a society breached by those who have and those who do not.  But as that is the make-up of the world, I believe that God would have us share what we have - and, yes, that does mean income redistribution.  As we are also told in Scripture, Jesus is the one who is thirsty, hungry, in prison, without clothes.  In those who are considered the least of society we see Jesus.  And it is in the church's ministry that they they, too, see Jesus. 

As an aside, a wish for 2016:  could we call ourselves Christmas, baptized Christmas, Lutherans, anything but confessional Lutherans.   It has truly come to be so subjective on this site. 

[Fletch]

Please answer my question...  I did not ask why the Law. I know the answer to that question.   My request is quite simple. Please provide examples of laws that are directed to Christians only.   Where in Scripture might I find them?

Marie Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you may enjoy this article:  https://www.gci.org/law/lawtoday  You may wish to read the entire article so you get the context.  Note, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the GCI - just addressing your question; the short answer is "in the law of Christ".

An excerpt follows.

Edit to add:  I think you would enjoy Dr. Biermann's sessions on Christian Doctrine that I mentioned earlier.  Much of what he teaches is similar to Dr. Robert Kolb's book, The Christian Faith; it is excellent in my opinion - I've read it several times.

... Fletch

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

Is the conclusion you quote by Dr. Kolb or Dr. Biermann?

In any event, I do not understand how or when "the law of Christ" would conflict with laws and principles in the Old Testament because the law of Christ "more fully expresses the will of God?" 

The will of God is that all people every where know, fear, love and trust in the Triune God as the One God by Whom, for Whom in Whom they have their being.

What laws in the OT or what "law of Christ" are not in keeping with the will of God?

Marie Meyer

As I mentioned in my earlier quote of the italicised material, it is from the link I provided - GCI - not from Dr. Kolb or Dr. Biermann; my earlier post must not have been clear.  I have not studied GCI theology.  I may be totally wrong, but I perceive your question "What laws in the OT or what "law of Christ" are not in keeping with the will of God?" as not serious, or as one you really know the answer to already.  I am choosing not to get into a big brouhaha over eating or touching pork or washing hands before eating or a debate of which of the 800+ "rules" do not apply to Christians today.  If you do not support the 3rd use of the law as a guide, that is fine.  It is controversial among Lutherans and you are free to see it however you like from my standpoint.  There has been much ink spilled on the topic over the years.  I do think Dr. Biermann gives a good discussion on the 3rd use.  I enjoyed Dr. Kolb's book.  I offered that in case you have interest and have not read/heard it.  If not, no big deal.

... Fletch

[mariemeyer]

Please answer my question...  I did not ask why the Law. I know the answer to that question.   My request is quite simple. Please provide examples of laws that are directed to Christians only.   Where in Scripture might I find them?

Marie Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you may enjoy this article:  https://www.gci.org/law/lawtoday  You may wish to read the entire article so you get the context.  Note, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the GCI - just addressing your question; the short answer is "in the law of Christ".

An excerpt follows.

Edit to add:  I think you would enjoy Dr. Biermann's sessions on Christian Doctrine that I mentioned earlier.  Much of what he teaches is similar to Dr. Robert Kolb's book, The Christian Faith; it is excellent in my opinion - I've read it several times.

... Fletch

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God’s living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus’ teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

Is the conclusion you quote by Dr. Kolb or Dr. Biermann?

In any event, I do not understand how or when "the law of Christ" would conflict with laws and principles in the Old Testament because the law of Christ "more fully expresses the will of God?" 

The will of God is that all people every where know, fear, love and trust in the Triune God as the One God by Whom, for Whom in Whom they have their being.

What laws in the OT or what "law of Christ" are not in keeping with the will of God?

Marie Meyer

As I mentioned in my earlier quote of the italicised material, it is from the link I provided - GCI - not from Dr. Kolb or Dr. Biermann; my earlier post must not have been clear.  I have not studied GCI theology.  I may be totally wrong, but I perceive your question "What laws in the OT or what "law of Christ" are not in keeping with the will of God?" as not serious, or as one you really know the answer to already.  I am choosing not to get into a big brouhaha over eating or touching pork or washing hands before eating or a debate of which of the 800+ "rules" do not apply to Christians today.  If you do not support the 3rd use of the law as a guide, that is fine.  It is controversial among Lutherans and you are free to see it however you like from my standpoint.  There has been much ink spilled on the topic over the years.  I do think Dr. Biermann gives a good discussion on the 3rd use.  I enjoyed Dr. Kolb's book.  I offered that in case you have interest and have not read/heard it.  If not, no big deal.

... Fletch

Suggest the need for clarity.  The reference to Douglas Moo was somewhat misleading.  He happens to be a Reformed theologian whose understanding of the Law in the life of the Christian is closer to Calvin than Luther. 

Marie Meyer

[Brian Stoffregen]

Please answer my question...  I did not ask why the Law. I know the answer to that question.   My request is quite simple. Please provide examples of laws that are directed to Christians only.   Where in Scripture might I find them?

Marie Meyer

Mrs. Meyer, you may enjoy this article:  https://www.gci.org/law/lawtoday  You may wish to read the entire article so you get the context.  Note, I'm not endorsing or not endorsing the GCI - just addressing your question; the short answer is "in the law of Christ".

An excerpt follows.

Edit to add:  I think you would enjoy Dr. Biermann's sessions on Christian Doctrine that I mentioned earlier.  Much of what he teaches is similar to Dr. Robert Kolb's book, The Christian Faith; it is excellent in my opinion - I've read it several times.

... Fletch

Conclusion
Christians are called to live a holy life in obedience to Christ. They are to live by every word of God as it applies to them. The law system applying to Christians now is not the law of the Old Testament, but the law of Christ. It is not a written code that one defines by rules and regulations. It is the application of God's living law of love that affects every area of our lives.

This does not mean that Christians discard Old Testament law as if it has no relevance to them today. There is much relevance because it expresses the will of God for a particular people during a particular age. The principles underlying many Mosaic laws are valid for Christians today. As D.J. Moo observes:

Jesus never attacks the Law and, indeed, asserts its enduring validity. But it is only as taken up into Jesus' teaching, and thus fulfilled, that the Law retains its validity. The Law comes to those living on this side of the cross only through the filter of its fulfillment in Christ the Lord. (Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 450)

Often the application of the law of Christ coincides with laws and principles in the Old Testament. Sometimes it does not. But whenever there is a conflict between them, the law of Christ prevails because it more fully expresses the will of God.

Marie asked the same question I have - which you still have not answered. Please give examples of laws that are directed to Christians only? If there are no laws directed to Christians only, then how can there be a third use as you defined it?

[aletheist]

What laws are for Christians only?  IOW, what in the God's Holy Law was given for believers only?

Marie asked the same question I have - which you still have not answered. Please give examples of laws that are directed to Christians only?

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see where in this thread Fletch claimed that there are laws that are for Christians only.  As Lutherans, we believe, teach, and confess that there are three different uses of the Law, not that there are three different sets of laws.

[Fletch]

Hopeless    Perhaps Jon will get through.

... Fletch

[Donald_Kirchner]

What laws are for Christians only?  IOW, what in the God's Holy Law was given for believers only?

Marie asked the same question I have - which you still have not answered. Please give examples of laws that are directed to Christians only?

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see where in this thread Fletch claimed that there are laws that are for Christians only.  As Lutherans, we believe, teach, and confess that there are three different uses of the Law, not that there are three different sets of laws.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.

How gracious of you to confirm Jon Schmidt's observation, BPS, that Fletch never stated that there are laws for Christians only.  The 3rd use, however, is by definition for Christians only as Lutherans confess: "... also that, when they have been born anew by the Spirit of God, converted to the Lord, and thus the veil of Moses has been lifted from them, they live and walk in the law, a dissension has occurred between some few theologians concerning this third and last use of the Law." [FC SD VI 1]

BTW, if you are going to change another's statement in quoting it let the reader know you've done so.

[peter_speckhard]

What laws are for Christians only?  IOW, what in the God's Holy Law was given for believers only?

Marie asked the same question I have - which you still have not answered. Please give examples of laws that are directed to Christians only?

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see where in this thread Fletch claimed that there are laws that are for Christians only.  As Lutherans, we believe, teach, and confess that there are three different uses of the Law, not that there are three different sets of laws.

This ought to be a matter of "Duh." But I guess not.