Donald Trump: The Man And The Myth

[Donald_Kirchner]

I'm going to go way out on a limb and say, I have no OBLIGATIONS to my neighbor if I'm a Christian re. the third use.  Everything I do for them in my various vocations will be out of love, not obligation, when I'm guided by the third use of the law.  I would not even think of the word obligation in that context.  Let the fireworks begin.

I won't put the match to that cherry bomb Fletch because I don't disagree with you.  But, I'll note that your response is incomplete.  If you fail to response to your neighbor out of love, the 1st and 2nd then apply because, by those uses, you do have the obligation.

What obligation under 1st use is that, Mr. Mundinger? As I stated in #347:

"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

[mariemeyer]

During the late fifties Valpo deaconess students were requited to take a two credit course devoted to Walther's Law and Gospel [/i.] The professors who established the curriculum, Robert C. Schultz, Edward Schroeder and Robert Bertram, were later labeled  "Valpo theologians" who introduced "Gospel Reductionism" in the LCMS.  (See Murray's Law, Life and the Living God.)

I never could understand how the professors who told Valpo deaconess students to re-read Walther's Law and Gospel every year once they were in the parish were Gospel Reductionists.  They all seemed to hold Walther in high regard.

Marie Meyer

[Dave Benke]

I know somebody who knows Donald Trump pretty well.  I'm going to ask her to have him read this thread, with his very own name at the top.  My belief is that if he can follow the dips and curves in this thread, all of which lead away from him, he can be the President of the United States.

Dave Benke

[John Mundinger]

"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

[Fletch]

"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

Mr. Mundinger,

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

... Fletch

[John Mundinger]

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

"Use" is about how God uses God's Law, not how we use God's Law.

1st use is a curb.  But, if the Laws enacted by men to curb behavior fail to serve the neighbor, it is not God using the Law.

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

2nd use is a mirror or a rule.  It is how God uses the Law to show us our sins.  It is the use of the Law which "crushes" us.  As it relates to this conversation, it is the use of the Law which which tells us that the priest and the Levite sinned by obeying existing law and ignoring the man in the ditch.  It is the use of the Law that tells us it is sinful to tolerate our nation's failure to serve the needs of our disenfranchised population. 

Certainly, we are called to support local initiatives and I presume that most/all of the participants in this forum do that.  But, the need is greater and there is significant resistance to the idea that government (1st use) has a role to play in addressing that need.  I'd suggest that supporting policies and politicians contrary to the best interests of those with the need is failure to love the neighbor and sinful under 2nd use.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

That is basically how I was taught and how I believe, except I am not comfortable with the notion of the Law being "for" people.  As I noted above, it is how God uses God's Law on people. 

This conversation has helped me to better understand the "dispute" about whether there are two or three uses of the Law.  Are there really three uses or is "third use" just a way to think about how first and second use function differently in the lives of believers.  I have concluded that there is not a lot of substance to that particular disagreement.

[Team Hesse]

  I'd suggest that supporting policies and politicians contrary to the best interests of those with the need is failure to love the neighbor and sinful under 2nd use.

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing. But we have become so used to "Big Brother" addressing needs that the only way some feel needs will be addressed is through the coercive powers of a nanny state. When one can only accomplish good by being coerced into it....it is no longer good. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, do I hear Jesus or the Apostles advocating a role for government in social service ministry.


I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.


Lou

[John Mundinger]

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing.

They still do and please note that the solution I suggested includes a significant role for the private sector.  But, when has the private response ever been comparable to the level of need?

I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.

Society is wicked because we expect government to serve our selfish interests, without regard for the legitimate needs of our neighbors.  It likewise is wicked to support policies and politicians that will perpetuate that model.  Good government is ordained by God and an instrument in His left hand.  I am not necessarily inviting a large role for government in society.  I am advocating a better role for government in our society - a role that better serves the interests of our neighbors in need.

[Fletch]

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing.

They still do and please note that the solution I suggested includes a significant role for the private sector.  But, when has the private response ever been comparable to the level of need?

I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.

Society is wicked because we expect government to serve our selfish interests, without regard for the legitimate needs of our neighbors.  It likewise is wicked to support policies and politicians that will perpetuate that model.  Good government is ordained by God and an instrument in His left hand.  I am not necessarily inviting a large role for government in society.  I am advocating a better role for government in our society - a role that better serves the interests of our neighbors in need.

Mr. Mundinger,

Where do you see the modifier good directed toward government in Scripture?  Are you saying bad government is not ordained by God?  Who gets to define what good means?  What legitimate means?  What better means?  God or man?

I thought governments were to reduce chaos and provide order so that people were free in the kindom of the left to worship God.  I do not see social justice as being a role of government as described in Scripture.

... Fletch

[Dave Benke]

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing.

They still do and please note that the solution I suggested includes a significant role for the private sector.  But, when has the private response ever been comparable to the level of need?

I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.

Society is wicked because we expect government to serve our selfish interests, without regard for the legitimate needs of our neighbors.  It likewise is wicked to support policies and politicians that will perpetuate that model.  Good government is ordained by God and an instrument in His left hand.  I am not necessarily inviting a large role for government in society.  I am advocating a better role for government in our society - a role that better serves the interests of our neighbors in need.

Mr. Mundinger,

Where do you see the modifier good directed toward government in Scripture?  Are you saying bad government is not ordained by God?  Who gets to define what good means?  What legitimate means?  What better means?  God or man?

I thought governments were to reduce chaos and provide order so that people were free in the kindom of the left to worship God.  I do not see social justice as being a role of government as described in Scripture.

... Fletch

Confessional Lutherans note Luther's Small Catechism on "Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread:"

What is meant by daily bread?--Answer.

Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.

At the very least it is our intention to pray to God for good government.  And pious children.  And good friends and faithful neighbors.  And the like.


Dave Benke

[mariemeyer]

"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

Mr. Mundinger,

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

... Fletch

What laws are for Christians only?  IOW, what in the God's Holy Law was given for believers only?

Marie Meyer

[Fletch]

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing.

They still do and please note that the solution I suggested includes a significant role for the private sector.  But, when has the private response ever been comparable to the level of need?

I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.

Society is wicked because we expect government to serve our selfish interests, without regard for the legitimate needs of our neighbors.  It likewise is wicked to support policies and politicians that will perpetuate that model.  Good government is ordained by God and an instrument in His left hand.  I am not necessarily inviting a large role for government in society.  I am advocating a better role for government in our society - a role that better serves the interests of our neighbors in need.

Mr. Mundinger,

Where do you see the modifier good directed toward government in Scripture?  Are you saying bad government is not ordained by God?  Who gets to define what good means?  What legitimate means?  What better means?  God or man?

I thought governments were to reduce chaos and provide order so that people were free in the kindom of the left to worship God.  I do not see social justice as being a role of government as described in Scripture.

... Fletch

Confessional Lutherans note Luther's Small Catechism on "Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread:"

What is meant by daily bread?--Answer.

Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.

At the very least it is our intention to pray to God for good government.  And pious children.  And good friends and faithful neighbors.  And the like.


Dave Benke

Of course I agree with all that, just as I agree with the statements about not stealing from another (LC 6th) to better your circumstances.  I see a difference between praying for God's mercy, relying that He will give it to us, even if comes after my physical death, versus expecting the government exacting from one to give it to another - i.e. social justice politics (or religion).

... Fletch

[Fletch]

"The irony in the arguments here is that the Pharisee and the Levite kept the first use of the law. Even today, in most states and certainly under the common law, they would be keeping the 1st use, if seen as civil use."

They kept the civil use.  Civil use that does not serve neighbor is not really first use.

What about your duty under 2nd use?

Mr. Mundinger,

1st use:  curb.  Are you saying that if a non-believer obeys the highway speed limit or stays on the right side of a yellow line, it is NOT useful in serving his neighbor?

2nd use: mirror.  Duty under 2nd use - I don't understand what you are driving at?  Please explain.

Edit:  I was taught the 1st and 2nd uses of the Law are for both believers and non-believers.  The 3rd use is for believers only.  What is your understanding?

... Fletch

What laws are for Christians only?  IOW, what in the God's Holy Law was given for believers only?

Marie Meyer

I take it you are not a fan of the 3rd use of the Law as a guide for Christians (e.g. as described by Dr. Joel Biermann, Concordia Seminary, recorded for the iTunes University series on Christian Doctrine).  Your question above does not seem to be directed toward the three uses of the law - it seems directed more toward why the law; I expect you already know the answer to that.

... Fletch

[Dave Benke]

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing.

They still do and please note that the solution I suggested includes a significant role for the private sector.  But, when has the private response ever been comparable to the level of need?

I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.

Society is wicked because we expect government to serve our selfish interests, without regard for the legitimate needs of our neighbors.  It likewise is wicked to support policies and politicians that will perpetuate that model.  Good government is ordained by God and an instrument in His left hand.  I am not necessarily inviting a large role for government in society.  I am advocating a better role for government in our society - a role that better serves the interests of our neighbors in need.

Mr. Mundinger,

Where do you see the modifier good directed toward government in Scripture?  Are you saying bad government is not ordained by God?  Who gets to define what good means?  What legitimate means?  What better means?  God or man?

I thought governments were to reduce chaos and provide order so that people were free in the kindom of the left to worship God.  I do not see social justice as being a role of government as described in Scripture.

... Fletch

Confessional Lutherans note Luther's Small Catechism on "Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread:"

What is meant by daily bread?--Answer.

Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.

At the very least it is our intention to pray to God for good government.  And pious children.  And good friends and faithful neighbors.  And the like.


Dave Benke

Of course I agree with all that, just as I agree with the statements about not stealing from another (LC 6th) to better your circumstances.  I see a difference between praying for God's mercy, relying that He will give it to us, even if comes after my physical death, versus expecting the government exacting from one to give it to another - i.e. social justice politics (or religion).

... Fletch

What you're doing is describing what you mean by "good government," as opposed to what someone else might mean by the same.  I guess the expectation is that your prayers cancel out the other Christian's, then.  The point was that "good government" is included in the table of prayer duties, not just "government."  Luther includes the word "good."  This must mean that there is such a thing as "bad" government, unfaithful magistrates and the like, which is to be prayed against.

Dave Benke

[Fletch]

Very telling comment demonstrating how low we have fallen....There was a time when private foundations, institutions, and even corporations were the means of addressing perceived needs. People would band together to work together on projects they agreed were pressing.

They still do and please note that the solution I suggested includes a significant role for the private sector.  But, when has the private response ever been comparable to the level of need?

I repeat my original assertion: to invite or encourage a larger role for government in society indicates society is becoming more wicked.

Society is wicked because we expect government to serve our selfish interests, without regard for the legitimate needs of our neighbors.  It likewise is wicked to support policies and politicians that will perpetuate that model.  Good government is ordained by God and an instrument in His left hand.  I am not necessarily inviting a large role for government in society.  I am advocating a better role for government in our society - a role that better serves the interests of our neighbors in need.

Mr. Mundinger,

Where do you see the modifier good directed toward government in Scripture?  Are you saying bad government is not ordained by God?  Who gets to define what good means?  What legitimate means?  What better means?  God or man?

I thought governments were to reduce chaos and provide order so that people were free in the kindom of the left to worship God.  I do not see social justice as being a role of government as described in Scripture.

... Fletch

Confessional Lutherans note Luther's Small Catechism on "Give Us This Day Our Daily Bread:"

What is meant by daily bread?--Answer.

Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.

At the very least it is our intention to pray to God for good government.  And pious children.  And good friends and faithful neighbors.  And the like.


Dave Benke

Of course I agree with all that, just as I agree with the statements about not stealing from another (LC 6th) to better your circumstances.  I see a difference between praying for God's mercy, relying that He will give it to us, even if comes after my physical death, versus expecting the government exacting from one to give it to another - i.e. social justice politics (or religion).

... Fletch

What you're doing is describing what you mean by "good government," as opposed to what someone else might mean by the same.  I guess the expectation is that your prayers cancel out the other Christian's, then.  The point was that "good government" is included in the table of prayer duties, not just "government."  Luther includes the word "good."  This must mean that there is such a thing as "bad" government, unfaithful magistrates and the like, which is to be prayed against.

Dave Benke

Point taken.  But I am more inclined to say "God is in charge of how and when and if prayers are answered" regardless of who is praying for what; that was the intent of my statement when I mentioned relying on God's mercy.  I see the social justice movement as just another way of man wanting to be in charge and, as Sinatra says, have it my way. 

... Fletch