Author Topic: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America  (Read 2990 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2015, 01:03:52 PM »
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2015, 01:11:45 PM »
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?


The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

LutherMan

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2015, 01:23:48 PM »
http://blogs.lcms.org/2015/relationship-with-bsa
LCMS relationship with BSA ‘no longer tenable’
on December 1, 2015 in New This Week, News, Reporter 4

As of today (Dec. 1), the formal relationship between The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod and the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is “no longer tenable,” according to LCMS President Rev. Dr. Matthew C. Harrison and Office of National Mission Executive Director Rev. Bart Day. The decision came as a result of the BSA’s action, made earlier this year, to allow openly gay Scout leaders.

In a statement released today, Harrison and Day outlined months of conversation and correspondence with leadership from the BSA prior to the Synod’s dissolution of the Memorandum of Understanding with the BSA, noting that “while we understand the legal concerns that led to this new BSA direction, it is simply a place the church is not willing to go.”

Legal concerns were also a determining factor. “Recent federal rulings, including the Supreme Court ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges, are shaping decisions by organizations such as the BSA,” the statement explained. “Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally.”

Harrison and Day also noted that they “lament the fact that an MOU between the LCMS and the BSA is no longer possible” and “pray that the Lord of the church will bless congregations and individuals as they consider the information shared here and chart a faithful course forward.”

To read the statement or a shortened version of it, click here.

Posted Dec. 1, 2015


Dave Likeness

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2015, 01:48:47 PM »
What about the Girl Scouts of America?   Have we checked out
their troop leaders?   Are they allowing lesbians to be Girl Scout
leaders?   Who is actually baking the Girl Scout cookies?

Bottom Line:  Do not focus completely on the Boy Scouts.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2015, 02:24:38 PM »
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?

The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.

So, your question really wasn't a question but, rather, an attempted "gotcha." Always playing games, BS.   ::)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 03:13:12 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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LutherMan

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2015, 02:37:03 PM »
Hundreds Leave Mormon Church Despite Clarification On Anti-Gay Baptism Policy

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/11/16/3722461/mormon-resignation-protest/

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2015, 04:16:58 PM »
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?

The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.

So, your question really wasn't a question but, rather, an attempted "gotcha." Always playing games, BS.   ::)


No, I asked an honest question: Why is the LCMS pulling out and LDS is not? The questioned was spurred by the conversation with my member about scouting and the strong involvement by the LDS in our area.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2015, 04:23:33 PM »
Good words from Pastor Fienen upstream.  One of my sons is involved in scouting and I am as well.  It has been very beneficial for him in a number of ways.  The troop is sponsored by our local Kiwanis club, though it meets at my church.  Most of the boys are members of my congregation and those that aren't claim no membership anywhere in town.  In my years involved in scouting...going back to my service as a chaplain at one of the camps while in seminary; I have never experience national telling a troop, our council that they HAD to accept someone in leadership that they felt would be a bad fit.  There is plenty of flexibility and responsibility at the local level for the Troop committee to choose the person that they feel best qualified to lead.  NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone; and whoever was chosen would still have to conform to the youth protection and leadership standards set by the national organization.

My opinion is that you are treading on thin ice. Seldom does a legal entity blatantly wrongfully discriminate. They usually come up with what would be a "legal" reason for not hiring/appointing someone in a protected class. Perhaps "NO ONE would be chosen on basis of their sexual orientation alone," but if a trier of fact determines that an entity rejected someone on the basis of their sexual orientation that entity legally/financially could suffer for it. It appears that national will be of little or no help.

Why do you think Synod is backing away from the BSA? (Hint: Money usually is a major factor.)

"While legal speculation is just that, we are concerned that the legal boundaries are still being drawn with each court case, and we are concerned that LCMS congregations could be pulled into such a legal battle. Congregations who continue their BSA charters after the Dec. 1, 2015, dissolution of the LCMS MOU should seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."

So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?

Do we have any Mormons on this board? Are you asking them?

The answer I got from a church member who is highly involved with Scouting is that the Mormons take seriously the autonomy that scouting gives them for their troops.

So, your question really wasn't a question but, rather, an attempted "gotcha." Always playing games, BS.   ::)

No, I asked an honest question: Why is the LCMS pulling out and LDS is not? The questioned was spurred by the conversation with my member about scouting and the strong involvement by the LDS in our area.

No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Tim Schenks

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2015, 04:22:19 AM »
Seems simple to me. If LCMS youth want to take part in scouting, they simply join a troop in their town sponsored by another church. What would be wrong with that?

That's pretty much what happened here. My congregation's scout troop disbanded before I was old enough to join. I ended up joining one sponsored not by another church but by the public elementary school. We put on Christmas programs at that public school too.

They always say it's not a religious organization, but I sure do remember when I was very young (early or mid 1970s) the Eagle Scouts in our congregation would be pinned/badged (?) during the Sunday Divine Service in front of the altar and the pictures would be put in the newspaper.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 04:29:01 AM by Tim Schenks »

Charles Austin

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2015, 06:12:56 AM »
Scouting itself is not "religious," (except maybe for that word "reverent" in its list of 12 virtues). But scouting does have awards - given under the auspices of and supervision of churches - for service in one's congregation.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired in Minneapolis. My only Thanksgiving cooking chore: providing fresh ground, fair trade, bird friendly coffee.

Tim Schenks

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2015, 06:51:09 AM »
Scouting itself is not "religious," (except maybe for that word "reverent" in its list of 12 virtues).

That reminds me of the old Captain Marvel character "Shazam" - six virtues: Solomon's wisdom, Hercules' strength, etc.  :)

Charles Austin

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2015, 10:11:49 AM »
I had in mind the Boy Scout Law: A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
I don't know what the Boy Scout Gospel might be.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired in Minneapolis. My only Thanksgiving cooking chore: providing fresh ground, fair trade, bird friendly coffee.

DeHall

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2015, 01:32:54 PM »
Trail Life USA was founded in 2013 in reaction to changes in the BSA membership policies.  as of January 7, 2015, it had 524 troops in 48 states and just under 20,000 members.   IIRC, LC MS churches can affiliate with this organization.  If your church currently sponsors a BSA Troop and is considering dropping their sponsorship, this may be an alternative solution.

Trail Life USA is a partner with American Heritage Girls

Richard Johnson

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2015, 05:18:12 PM »
No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.

You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: LCMS dissolves Memorandum of Understanding with Boy Scouts of America
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2015, 05:27:00 PM »
No, BS, you didn't ask that question. You asked, "So, why isn't the LDS with its similar view of homosexual behaviors backing away like the LCMS?" A member of yours "highly involved with Scouting" already had given you the answer. If you need further info, I suggested you ask a Mormon. There are plenty in your area.

You know, you may think that your constant reference to Brian as "BS" is cute and clever. While I may agree with your implied characterization of a good bit of what Brian writes, I don't think your reference is cute and clever. I think it is rude and disrespectful, and as far as humor goes, it floats around the level of a fifth-grader.

You know what happens when you assume, Rev. Johnson.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs