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The holiday that hurts

Started by LutherMan, November 09, 2015, 05:08:17 PM

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John Mundinger

Quote from: Daniel L. Gard on November 10, 2015, 09:01:27 PMYet there are cases of responsible individual pastoral care and, while I cannot go into detail, a Marine about to offload from the ship and go into combat will hunger and thirst for the Sacrament. So might a young warrior stuck with me at Guantanamo for 9 months without a break and who faces daily threats from the detainees he or she must guard. So, yes - while it is rare, it has happened.

Luther argues, in his explanation of the Sacrament, that all those who believe the promise and hunger and thirst for the Sacrament should be encouraged to commune.  It would follow that responsible pastoral care necessarily means communing all such persons, irrespective of either the other circumstances of affiliation.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 09:13:06 AM
I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses. 

Uh huh, that's why there were those in your generation who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home.

It's Veteran's Day, Mr. Mundinger. And that's what this thread is about. Here's your chance to show some respect.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

John Mundinger

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 10:45:01 AMUh huh, that's why there were those in your generation who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home.

Been there, done that and got the "road guard badge" (and a good measure of that saliva).  What's on your DD-214?

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 10:45:01 AMIt's Veteran's Day, Mr. Mundinger. And that's what this thread is about. Here's your chance to show some respect.

I am!  Yellow ribbon and happy talk are nothing more that salve for the consciences of those who turn a blind eye to the reality that we are more than willing to send our military into armed conflict on false pretenses and then discard them when they return home.

Following the defeat of the Spanish armada, the British king refused to allow his navy to return home because he did not want to pay the sailors for their service.  Throughout history, veterans have been treated that way and we aren't much better.  Veterans are disproportionately represented among our homeless and we refuse to deliver on the promise of other veterans benefits.  If you want to celebrate this day in a meaningful way, speak out about such atrocities!
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Terry W Culler

Quote from: Pr. Don Kirchner on November 11, 2015, 10:45:01 AM
Quote from: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 09:13:06 AM
I am not critical of those who serve as warriors.  I am critical of those who send them to war, especially when they do so on false pretenses. 

Uh huh, that's why there were those in your generation who spit on the soldiers and called them "Baby killers!" and worse when they came home.

It's Veteran's Day, Mr. Mundinger. And that's what this thread is about. Here's your chance to show some respect.

Don: don't overplay that hostility card.  I never had anyone mistreat me in any way when I appeared in public in uniform.  I even got free coffee every now and then in diners.  Most people weren't hostile to the GIs, they were indifferent.  Now we have an opposite effect, generated in part, I believe, by remorse over how GIs and vets were treated back then.  All military veterans are not good people even in a secular sense.  Some of them are down right dangerous because war brings out into the forefront things that we really work to stuff down deep inside and some find that they like that rush they get from doing things society dislikes.  You can't shoot people unless your Mr. Hyde is let loose.  But John is right about governments that think Clausewitz was right, war is just another form of politics.  We send people into harms way, asking them to do horrendous things, and we do it with no clear view of why or what we expect to get out of it or when.  Then we take on a bunch of bromides about democracy or freedom or whatever.  The only veterans alive today who went to war in the "right" way are 90 years old or those few of fought early in Afghanistan. The rest of us, well saying thank you for your service just doesn't make up for it all.
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Steverem on November 11, 2015, 08:53:10 AM
In this case, "all appropriate honor" means saying, "Thank you for your service," and not following it up with, "But..."

Try it today, guys, and tout your agenda tomorrow.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Charles Austin

Pastor Kirchner writes:
Charles, on this Veteran's Day what is your point?
I comment:
My point is that we should honor our military veterans. And BTW, if we truly honor them and care for them, then explain to me why it is necessary to have private fund-raising efforts like the Wounded Warrior Project to get disabled veterans what they need to live useful and comfortable lives after their military service? See what Mr. Mundinger says just upstream.
My local newspaper has an Op-Ed article today by a veteran who says he is tired of the "honor" and would rather be honored by having our country take a closer look at the reasons we send people into danger and whether it is the right thing to do.

The deaconess writes:
Then petition your politicians for the creation of a Green Peace Veterans day.  For God's sake, it is one day to honor those who have served and sacrificed for the sake of their country . . . a pledge they made to sacrifice life and limb for their countrymen.
I comment:
Maybe. But we do the same on July Fourth and on Memorial Day. That makes it three days.

The deaconess writes:
What other national organization requires that type of oath?  And not all veterans have historically come home to the welcome you describe.  Because of the shameful "welcome" received by Vietnam vets, people like me were welcomed home from Desert Storm with much pomp and ceremony.
I comment:
Those who disparaged the service of Vietnam vets were wrong to do so. And since apparently Desert Storm and subsequent conflicts apparently haven't "won" anything or brought peace, maybe the pomp and ceremony should have been re-directed as anger and calls for reform aimed at the people who sent you over there.

The deaconess writes:
Even if you don't agree with the decisions of your country's leadership, sacrifice and service means doing your job . . . what you are bound by your oath to do.
I comment:
Not always. Sometimes it means recognizing a higher power than the one to which you swore the oath.

The deaconess writes:
Those who serve under the banner of Christ have to especially wrestle with all sorts of moral issues to do so . . . diminishing the importance of their service is most unhelpful.
I comment:
Yes, indeed. And I do not diminish the importance of their service.
Iowa-born. ELCA pastor, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. English major. Elitist snob? Probably.

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 11:18:08 AM
And I do not diminish the importance of their service.

But you do.  Because you fail to recognize it does not change the fact that you do.  One day.  I think you can handle it. 

Charles Austin

Then we disagree, deaconess, and you can handle it if I say you are over-emphasizing and over-valuing their service.
Iowa-born. ELCA pastor, ordained 1967. Former journalist. Retired in Minneapolis. English major. Elitist snob? Probably.

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on November 11, 2015, 11:12:37 AM
Don: don't overplay that hostility card. 

Those are the stories my uncles described to me, as well as the stories many veterans from that era who I have served have described.  It is not overplayed one bit.  Kent State, Jane Fonda anyone?

Buckeye Deaconess

Quote from: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 11:40:11 AM
Then we disagree, deaconess, and you can handle it if I say you are over-emphasizing and over-valuing their service.

Quote from: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 11:04:18 AM
What's on your DD-214?

D. Engebretson

Quote from: John Mundinger on November 11, 2015, 10:36:30 AM
Vietnam fell to the Communists, but none of the predicted consequences of that fall resulted.  In fact, just the opposite.  Vietnam is now a trading partner.  We had the opportunity to side with Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam's civil war.  We chose not too.  But, doing so would have made a lot of sense because we should have factored in the long-standing adversarial relationship between Vietnam and China.

You have forgotten that in the 10 years after the end of the war 1–2.5 million South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, with an estimated 165,000 prisoners dying.  Between 65,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese were executed.  Add to this the millions executed and murdered by Pol Pot in Cambodia. During my youth I watched the Lutheran church help in resettling Laotian refugees from the war.  They were fortunate.  It is estimated that at least 100,000 of their countrymen were killed in collaboration with the People's Army of Vietnam.  Our soldiers fought in that war, in part, to keep these atrocities from occurring.  These were not part of the "predicted consequences"?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Brian Stoffregen

Quote from: Fletch on November 11, 2015, 06:50:12 AM
It seems to me that those who serve in the military do sacrifice - mainly for the benefit of others.

It seems to me that those who refuse to serve in the military (other than for religious reasons) do sacrifice - mainly for the benefit of themselves. 


How many join the military as a way to get a job and a paycheck - thus serving themselves?


What about the millions of young people who neither join nor refuse to serve? I was given a 4-D deferment (minister - a life-time deferment) back when there was a draft when I was attending Bible school. Otherwise I certainly would have been drafted since my lottery number was 7 - and a student deferment was good for only 4 years. I didn't refuse to serve in the military. Neither did I volunteer. Had I been drafted I would have gone.
I flunked retirement. Serving as a part-time interim in Ferndale, WA.

Dave Likeness

We should not forget those who failed the medical/physical
tests for the draft.   The late, great Mickey Mantle had a
disease in his knee that disqualified him from military service.

Donald_Kirchner

Quote from: Charles Austin on November 11, 2015, 11:18:08 AM
Pastor Kirchner writes:
Charles, on this Veteran's Day what is your point?
I comment:
My point is that we should honor our military veterans. And BTW, if we truly honor them and care for them, then explain to me why it is necessary to have private fund-raising efforts...

Thank you and Mr. Mundinger for changing your foci to a quite appropriate issue for discussion.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it's not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

Terry W Culler

Quote from: Buckeye Deaconess on November 11, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
Quote from: Pr. Terry Culler on November 11, 2015, 11:12:37 AM
Don: don't overplay that hostility card. 

Those are the stories my uncles described to me, as well as the stories many veterans from that era who I have served have described.  It is not overplayed one bit.  Kent State, Jane Fonda anyone?

Your uncle's experience and mine seem to have been different.  But I would find it hard to believe that I am the only Vietnam vet who wasn't spit upon.  Also, please remember that our stories grower bigger along with the number of our birthdays  ;)
"No particular Church has ... a right to existence, except as it believes itself the most perfect from of Christianity, the form which of right, should and will be universal."
Charles Porterfield Krauth

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