Author Topic: The holiday that hurts  (Read 10567 times)

Team Hesse

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2015, 10:23:34 AM »

I'll ask you again.  What's on your DD214?  Mine is proof that I have earned the right to espouse my criticisms of our nation's militarism!


"Earned the right?" By your own consistent reasoning, the only "right" any of us sinners has "earned" is the right to die--"the wages of sin is death".


Again "the only solution to the absolute is the absolution." You, too, are forgiven for participating in our culture's war-making. Shalom in the name of Jesus.


Lou

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #136 on: November 13, 2015, 10:33:14 AM »
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!"

If that is your expression of thanks, for my service, you are welcome.

I'd simply add that more than a few veterans share the sentiments that I expressed in this thread.  Earlier I posted a link to the comments of the representative of one veterans organization that quite eloquently spoke to the notion that talk is cheap.  If we really mean the sentiment, why hasn't it been translated into action 365 days a year to deliver on the promised health care, to end homelessness for vets, etc. etc.?

As a vet, I agree I want my country to improve. After 11 years active duty and 22 years reserve duty, I have lived and worked in the USA, Europe, and SW Asia. There is no nation in this world that offers more rights, freedom, and opportunity than the United States. We're imperfect, but we're way ahead of whoever is in second place.

AS far as VA health care goes, it is the nation's largest healthcare system. It belongs solely to the federal government; neither party has been able to change the instutionalized lethargy of the VA, even the current president who was particularly strident about the VA BEFORE he was elected. It is time to drain that putrid swamp and put in place a system that really DOES take care of our disabled vets. But since that would be an admission that the federal government is too incompetent to run a health care system, our disabled vets will continue to suffer and die due to governmental neglect. A pox on both political parties for this! >:(
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 10:35:48 AM by Kurt Weinelt »
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John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #137 on: November 13, 2015, 02:15:02 PM »
For the record, I have discovered none. The only way out I know of is to embrace daily that I am baptized, my sins are forgiven because Jesus came into the world and took responsibility for the never-ending daily ways I and all other creatures fail to do the father's will. I have found no other means by which I can keep from screaming into the abyss "when will this madness stop." I want this consolation for you also. Sins truly are forgiven in Jesus name alone. Shalom.

That would be my conclusion, too.  But, I cannot daily embrace my Baptism and, at the same time, give the nation a pass for the way it uses the military as central to our foreign policy.  The madness may not stop, but that does not justify silence in naming the madness for what it is.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #138 on: November 13, 2015, 02:21:56 PM »
In the end it's still about you, isn't it, even to the point of criticizing a fine article because it doesn't jump on your hobby horse rant about just wars, instead crying "Talk is cheap!"  ::)

Just because the article jumps on your hobby horse rant doesn't necessarily make it a "fine article".  If if were something more than "cheap talk", the author would have proposed something substantive to counter the reality that we dishonor our veterans 364 days a year.  One day of happy talk might salve his and your consciences.  But, it doesn't do much for vets - especially those vets who are coping with the consequences of their honorable service.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #139 on: November 13, 2015, 02:24:43 PM »
Nations, being at their most basic nothing more than collections of people, behave like people. Those who perceive others as weak are tempted to take from the weak whatever they want if they believe that they are strong enough to do so successfully.

How often have we done that, George?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #140 on: November 13, 2015, 02:26:54 PM »
A pox on both political parties for this! >:(

...and, a pox on us for voting for them.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Team Hesse

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #141 on: November 13, 2015, 02:42:34 PM »
For the record, I have discovered none. The only way out I know of is to embrace daily that I am baptized, my sins are forgiven because Jesus came into the world and took responsibility for the never-ending daily ways I and all other creatures fail to do the father's will. I have found no other means by which I can keep from screaming into the abyss "when will this madness stop." I want this consolation for you also. Sins truly are forgiven in Jesus name alone. Shalom.

That would be my conclusion, too.  But, I cannot daily embrace my Baptism and, at the same time, give the nation a pass for the way it uses the military as central to our foreign policy.  The madness may not stop, but that does not justify silence in naming the madness for what it is.


I guess you have your call then......


Lou

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #142 on: November 13, 2015, 02:59:03 PM »
A pox on both political parties for this! >:(

...and, a pox on us for voting for them.
Then we have met the enemy, and they is us.
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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #143 on: November 13, 2015, 07:25:50 PM »
Perhaps. As I watch the news I see something more specific. But now is not the time to discuss it. Kyrie Eleison. :(
Don Kirchner

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George Erdner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #144 on: November 13, 2015, 09:01:51 PM »
Nations, being at their most basic nothing more than collections of people, behave like people. Those who perceive others as weak are tempted to take from the weak whatever they want if they believe that they are strong enough to do so successfully.

How often have we done that, George?

27 times. Or maybe 28.

Dan Fienen

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #145 on: November 14, 2015, 11:09:25 AM »
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #146 on: November 14, 2015, 12:40:01 PM »
Hate the sin. Love the sinner.

Is that cliché a Gandhi paraphrase?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2015, 12:42:02 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #147 on: November 14, 2015, 03:04:17 PM »
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"


Who said that there are only two ways to regard America. Certainly, not I. American has done a tremendous amount of good. I think I've done a lot of good things. Does that mean anything before the throne of God?


So what's your answers to my questions. Has our nation ever sinned? Has our military ever participated in evil actions? These are not asking, does America always sin or are all our military actions evil? It's asking if there can be legitimate complaints about some things American and our military have done - as well as praise for some things we have done.
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Dan Fienen

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #148 on: November 14, 2015, 04:48:55 PM »
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"


Who said that there are only two ways to regard America. Certainly, not I. American has done a tremendous amount of good. I think I've done a lot of good things. Does that mean anything before the throne of God?


So what's your answers to my questions. Has our nation ever sinned? Has our military ever participated in evil actions? These are not asking, does America always sin or are all our military actions evil? It's asking if there can be legitimate complaints about some things American and our military have done - as well as praise for some things we have done.
Of course our nation has participated in evil things.  Our military has participated in evil actions.  Actually if we want to talk about evil action by our nation and its leadership I could suggest supporting an economic system that seems to encourage inequalities in income distribution, past imperialistic adventures, a congress that seems more interested in promoting personal and party advantages than in governing for the good of the nation.  How about a presidential candidate that sees Republicans as the greatest enemy she faces?  I also see as evil a government that is more interested is promoting self-determination and individualistic values than in protecting the most vulnerable among us?

Yes there is cause for complaints against America as there is cause for complaint against any government.  Yet for some, the complaints seem to be about all that they wish to look at.  Any praise for American actions or intentions must be immediately followed by a litany of complaints about how bad America has behaved and about how we must all adequately repent of our sin as a nation before anything good could be said, not that some ever have anything good to say about America.  The bad is the focus, the good is ignored.
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SomeoneWrites

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #149 on: November 14, 2015, 10:40:39 PM »
I find interesting the implicit perfectionism exhibited by some comments concerning the sin of America.  Apparently there only two ways to regard America, either our nation is perfect or totally evil.  Any attempt to show that America has done some good, or have protected some innocent from the depredations of aggressors is met with the rejoinder "Do you believe that our nation has never sinned? That our military has never participated in evil actions?"


Who said that there are only two ways to regard America. Certainly, not I. American has done a tremendous amount of good. I think I've done a lot of good things. Does that mean anything before the throne of God?


So what's your answers to my questions. Has our nation ever sinned? Has our military ever participated in evil actions? These are not asking, does America always sin or are all our military actions evil? It's asking if there can be legitimate complaints about some things American and our military have done - as well as praise for some things we have done.

I think the big issue in this thread is "time and place" for criticisms. 
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