Author Topic: The holiday that hurts  (Read 10604 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #120 on: November 13, 2015, 12:00:59 AM »
Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.

No, you do not. And that's scary. Will the march of your straw men never end?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 12:05:59 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Charles Austin

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #121 on: November 13, 2015, 04:04:24 AM »
I guess I have to give you the last word, Pastor Kirchner, lest this set-to go on until after the cows come home, the soup gets cold and Helen's kid grows a beard. Throw it in here now, sans a personal insult, and le denier mot (while probably not bon) is yours.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #122 on: November 13, 2015, 08:10:12 AM »
What an absolutely ignorant and misguided statement of passivity!

No, just a statement in support of the principles of just war.  Military personnel are obligated to follow orders.  If we expect them to do that, they have a right to expect that the orders are legitimate.  They have a right to expect that the order to engage in combat is in defense of a legitimate threat; that the nation has first exhausted all reasonable alternatives to combat to neutralize the threat; and, that the nation did not provoke the threat in the first place.  There is nothing passive about the principles of just war.  It just means that there are more options than combat as the first and only choice.

The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil.  We have used our military for evil purposes.  We have consistently treated uniformed personnel as expendable.  We show them great disrespect.  In my opinion, the best way to celebrate "Veteran's Day" is to put an end to the platitudes that salve our guilty consciences and commit to significant change in our militaristic mentality.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #123 on: November 13, 2015, 08:40:19 AM »
The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil. 

And the Biblical basis for this sweeping condemnation of the institution of government is?
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John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #124 on: November 13, 2015, 08:48:05 AM »
The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil. 

And the Biblical basis for this sweeping condemnation of the institution of government is?

It is not a sweeping condemnation of the institution of government.  It is a sweeping condemnation of the way that sinful humans have corrupted the institution, as ordained by God.  And, if you are looking for a Biblical basis for the condemnation of this country, I'd suggest reading the prophets (you could start with Amos) and substitute "United States" every time the prophets speak against the sinful behavior of Israel and Judah.
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Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #125 on: November 13, 2015, 08:53:31 AM »
If you are sincere, Mr. Mundinger, then go back and read the article with which LutherMan initiated this thread. It addresses your concern and ends with a thank you to our veterans. Your reaction..."Talk is cheap!" followed by your never-ending rant about how evil America and Americans are. In the end, you manifest what has become quite popular today, Mr. Mundinger, a disrespect and even a hatred of America. We see it quite often.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/09/16/mixed-reaction-national-anthem-media-filing-room-stand-not-stand/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/10/13/watch-most-journos-fail-to-stand-for-anthem-at-democratic-debate/

Can it and thank a vet for sacrificing to give you the freedom to espouse your disrespect and lack of appreciation for what you've been given.
Don Kirchner

"Heaven's OK, but it’s not the end of the world." Jeff Gibbs

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #126 on: November 13, 2015, 09:13:21 AM »
The reality is that the United States, like every other nation, is evil. 

And the Biblical basis for this sweeping condemnation of the institution of government is?

It is not a sweeping condemnation of the institution of government.  It is a sweeping condemnation of the way that sinful humans have corrupted the institution, as ordained by God.  And, if you are looking for a Biblical basis for the condemnation of this country, I'd suggest reading the prophets (you could start with Amos) and substitute "United States" every time the prophets speak against the sinful behavior of Israel and Judah.


Yes, I agree with you. Sinful humans including you and me corrupt everything we are involved in. Even the very best we do is contaminated with  and by our sinfulness. How then do we live day by day? What concrete proposal can you bring to the table of human existence that will not be contaminated with the same problems you have so deftly identified in the American experiment? What is your proffered alternative?


For the record, I have discovered none. The only way out I know of is to embrace daily that I am baptized, my sins are forgiven because Jesus came into the world and took responsibility for the never-ending daily ways I and all other creatures fail to do the father's will. I have found no other means by which I can keep from screaming into the abyss "when will this madness stop." I want this consolation for you also. Sins truly are forgiven in Jesus name alone. Shalom.


Lou


Which actually is the best way to remember and celebrate this holiday in particular.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 09:15:08 AM by Team Hesse »

John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #127 on: November 13, 2015, 09:25:49 AM »
If you are sincere, Mr. Mundinger, then go back and read the article with which LutherMan initiated this thread. It addresses your concern and ends with a thank you to our veterans.

If we embrace the belief that the Lord of the Nations is the only source of peace, why do you (and LutherMan) have such difficulty with the suggestion that the best way to honor our veterans is to embrace the principles of just war? 

And, by the way, I didn't see anything in that statement advocating just war.  The article gave a pass to our engagements in Vietnam and Iraq.  And, if we are to conclude that God gave us our victories, do we also conclude that God gave us the defeat in Vietnam and our current travails in Iraq and Afghanistan?  And, if so, what is God trying to tell us with those "gifts"?

"Talk is cheap!" followed by your never-ending rant about how evil America and Americans are.

Given your understanding of God's Law, how are you able to conclude that our nation is anything but evil?

a disrespect and even a hatred of America.

I do not hate this country, Pr. Kirchner.  I do, however, hate our sinful behaviors.  Even more, I hate our unwillingness to be honest about it, even to the point of covering it up with platitudes, flawed arguments, etc.  Again, given your understanding of God's Law, I fail to understand your inability to grasp the distinction.

Can it and thank a vet for sacrificing to give you the freedom to espouse your disrespect and lack of appreciation for what you've been given.

I'll ask you again.  What's on your DD214?  Mine is proof that I have earned the right to espouse my criticisms of our nation's militarism!
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #128 on: November 13, 2015, 09:44:29 AM »
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!" to a fine article that initiated this thread. As Pr. Hesse has expressed, may you find peace and consolation, Mr. Mundinger.

BTW, the Bill of Rights applies to all citizens, Mr. Mundinger. Your comment shows that you misunderstand or disregard the concept of veterans having sacrificed for the nation, and for that we should thank them. Your comment that your service earned you a right expresses a self-centered view that you served for yourself so that you now can criticize the nation.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 09:49:09 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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John Mundinger

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #129 on: November 13, 2015, 09:52:59 AM »
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!"

If that is your expression of thanks, for my service, you are welcome.

I'd simply add that more than a few veterans share the sentiments that I expressed in this thread.  Earlier I posted a link to the comments of the representative of one veterans organization that quite eloquently spoke to the notion that talk is cheap.  If we really mean the sentiment, why hasn't it been translated into action 365 days a year to deliver on the promised health care, to end homelessness for vets, etc. etc.?
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

Kurt Weinelt

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #130 on: November 13, 2015, 09:57:01 AM »
Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.

No, you do not. And that's scary. Will the march of your straw men never end?

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
"Learning about history is an antidote to the hubris of the present, the idea that everything in OUR lives is the ultimate." David McCullough

Charles Austin

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #131 on: November 13, 2015, 10:01:40 AM »
Sure, Kurt Weinelt, there is a lot more "peace" when we show that we are prepared to kill and maim our "enemies" and invade their countries than when we show that we are trying to live together in a more peaceful world. Not.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, New York and New Jersey. LCA/LWF staff. Former journalist  Writer for many church publications.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #132 on: November 13, 2015, 10:13:07 AM »
Sure, Kurt Weinelt, there is a lot more "peace" when we show that we are prepared to kill and maim our "enemies" and invade their countries than when we show that we are trying to live together in a more peaceful world. Not.

And Charles' parade of straw men never ends.   :(

A more peaceful world?! Where have you been?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 10:31:46 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2015, 10:14:59 AM »
No Mr. Mundinger, in your mind your DD214 is license to feel superior to others who don't join you in disrespect on Veteran's Day, crying "Talk is cheap!"

If that is your expression of thanks, for my service, you are welcome.

In the end it's still about you, isn't it, even to the point of criticizing a fine article because it doesn't jump on your hobby horse rant about just wars, instead crying "Talk is cheap!"  ::)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 10:22:30 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Re: The holiday that hurts
« Reply #134 on: November 13, 2015, 10:20:00 AM »
Yes, I understand your position. It's "kill 'em, then make peace with 'em." Or at least threaten to kill them if you think they are out to get you.

No, you do not. And that's scary. Will the march of your straw men never end?

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus

Things built of parts are as good or evil as the parts they are built from. Nations are built of people. Therefore, nations are as good or as evil as people are.

Nations, being at their most basic nothing more than collections of people, behave like people. Those who perceive others as weak are tempted to take from the weak whatever they want if they believe that they are strong enough to do so successfully. Presenting an outward appearance of formidable strength is therefore one effective way to dissuade bullies from attacking. Yes, that means scaring others out of attacking you. The principle Teddy Roosevelt advocated, talking softly but carrying a big stick, is not the most "Christian" of principles, but it is effective. And, so long as the talk is kept soft, and the stick is used mostly to frighten potential attackers, or to parry a blow in a defensive manner, it isn't the worst course of action for minimizing international mayhem.