Author Topic: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School  (Read 11042 times)

Richard Johnson

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2015, 04:41:11 PM »
Actually in this case I think the prayer was being offered after the game. So perhaps a prayer of thanksgiving that no one was injured, or petition for any who might have been, or for safe travel home for the away team.
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Steverem

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2015, 04:42:14 PM »
Are we to pray ostentatiously before every public event?  Before shopping for groceries? Before having the car washed?  Before getting a haircut?  Before going to a movie?
 Why this concern about praying before a sporting event?

Most of us, frankly, aren't concerned about it at all.  We acknowledge that it has been done for quite a long time, and are comfortable with the practice continuing.

You, on the other hand ...

Steven W Bohler

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2015, 04:49:28 PM »
Perhaps more of a "return" rather than "change"? For example, one can research the Walther era for prayers and even services between the LCMS and other Lutheran bodies in which they were in dialog.

I agree, Don. Walther even attended two Anglican churches while in London on his way to Germany. He worshipped with members of the Buffalo Synod during a meeting between the two bodies; same with the Ohio Synod.

This openness to prayer with others changed during the predestinarian controversy. At the end of it, F.A. Schmidt and others refused to pray with Walther (then they formed the Anti-Missourian Brotherhood; great name for a church body). This brought about an emotional reaction from Missouri; they developed a unit concept of fellowship and buttressed with theology.

In the 1930s, the editors of "The American Lutheran" argued against that view of fellowship. Many of their arguments came from Walther's own practice and his writings. The arguments were consistently clear. Eventually, they did win the day in regards to this argument. The other thing that I think helped this argument go away was our involvement in military chaplaincy and Scouting.

I think it is important to note that there is also a difference between merely attending (as you say Walther did at Anglican services) and leading or co-officiating at such services.  I think all of us have attended services at other churches -- for weddings and funerals, if nothing else.  At least I have.  But I would not lead services with their pastors (nor would they ask me, I reckon).

Dave Likeness

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2015, 04:58:38 PM »
Charles Austin attended one high school football game
during his freshman year in H.S.   That was the last time
he ever went to a game.  Due to his inferiority complex,
he thought the players were talking about him when
they were in a huddle with the quarterback before each
offensive play.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2015, 05:09:21 PM »
Perhaps more of a "return" rather than "change"? For example, one can research the Walther era for prayers and even services between the LCMS and other Lutheran bodies in which they were in dialog.

I agree, Don. Walther even attended two Anglican churches while in London on his way to Germany. He worshipped with members of the Buffalo Synod during a meeting between the two bodies; same with the Ohio Synod.

This openness to prayer with others changed during the predestinarian controversy. At the end of it, F.A. Schmidt and others refused to pray with Walther (then they formed the Anti-Missourian Brotherhood; great name for a church body). This brought about an emotional reaction from Missouri; they developed a unit concept of fellowship and buttressed with theology.

In the 1930s, the editors of "The American Lutheran" argued against that view of fellowship. Many of their arguments came from Walther's own practice and his writings. The arguments were consistently clear. Eventually, they did win the day in regards to this argument. The other thing that I think helped this argument go away was our involvement in military chaplaincy and Scouting.

Thanks for the historical info, Pr. Butler.
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Dave Likeness

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2015, 05:20:04 PM »
 At his MSNBC news desk Brian Williams is reporting that he witnessed the
agreement between Army Head Chaplain A.C.Piepkorn and the four star
U.S. Army General Dwight D. Eisenhower. It allowed for Protestants
in the military to pray together in WWII.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 05:26:45 PM by Dave Likeness »

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2015, 05:27:22 PM »
Who cares if someone prays? Why is this an issue to anyone? I know that it is an issue (obviously) to some people since these ridiculous rulings keep coming and coming. No one is forced to join. You have the right to not pray for any reason - whether you are an atheist or a Christian who knows that, if you pray in public, you personally are acting the part of the Pharisee. Not every Christian has your problem.

But many of us are tired of others telling us that we may not pray whenever and wherever we want. I have that right just as you have the right to not pray. Do not try to force your theology on us.

peter_speckhard

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2015, 05:32:35 PM »
Are we to pray ostentatiously before every public event?  Before shopping for groceries? Before having the car washed?  Before getting a haircut?  Before going to a movie?
 Why this concern about praying before a sporting event?
I don't think the point is to be ostentatious. At least in my own case, I've probably been at well over 100 sporting events that had a prayer before them and I don't "ostentatious" was a word that ever occurred to me.

As for why this and not that, well, probably for the reasons mentioned already-- sporting events often involve risk of injury, exercise of talents, and the temptation to envy or bitterness, all things that getting a haircut or going grocery shopping do not involve.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2015, 05:56:16 PM »
Are we to pray ostentatiously before every public event?  Before shopping for groceries? Before having the car washed?  Before getting a haircut?  Before going to a movie?
 Why this concern about praying before a sporting event?
I don't think the point is to be ostentatious. At least in my own case, I've probably been at well over 100 sporting events that had a prayer before them and I don't "ostentatious" was a word that ever occurred to me.

As for why this and not that, well, probably for the reasons mentioned already-- sporting events often involve risk of injury, exercise of talents, and the temptation to envy or bitterness, all things that getting a haircut or going grocery shopping do not involve.

But then we've never been shopping with Charles...
Don Kirchner

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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2015, 06:17:22 PM »
Who cares if someone prays? Why is this an issue to anyone? I know that it is an issue (obviously) to some people since these ridiculous rulings keep coming and coming. No one is forced to join. You have the right to not pray for any reason - whether you are an atheist or a Christian who knows that, if you pray in public, you personally are acting the part of the Pharisee. Not every Christian has your problem.

But many of us are tired of others telling us that we may not pray whenever and wherever we want. I have that right just as you have the right to not pray. Do not try to force your theology on us.

For the most part, I'm with you.

However, I don't like the line it draws between people who join with the person in authority and with those who don't.  It's not a cross necklace, or a sikh turban, or a prayer mat - it's a corporate action.  I'm inclined to think that's the rub. 


as for,

Are we to pray ostentatiously before every public event?  Before shopping for groceries? Before having the car washed?  Before getting a haircut?  Before going to a movie?
 Why this concern about praying before a sporting event?

16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

-- I don't think it's a matter of the What, When, or Why... it seems to be the How.  And a bit of the Who. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2015, 08:35:13 PM »
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

-- I don't think it's a matter of the What, When, or Why... it seems to be the How.  And a bit of the Who.
So the Christian players and coaches and spectators would be praying throughout the game.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Daniel L. Gard

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2015, 09:02:52 PM »
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

-- I don't think it's a matter of the What, When, or Why... it seems to be the How.  And a bit of the Who.
So the Christian players and coaches and spectators would be praying throughout the game.

I doubt that they would be praying in a formal way. But is it a problem for you if they did?

I have an idea. You pray only in Church or your home or other places that meet the whatever criteria of propriety you may have. I will pray at ballgames, in restaurants, in front of abortuaries and anywhere else even if they do not meet your criteria.

In other words, you talk to God where you think He is. I will talk to my Lord wherever He is - which is everywhere.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 09:07:09 PM by Daniel L. Gard »

Charles Austin

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2015, 09:57:44 PM »
Actually, Mr. Likeness, I was "on the field" for almost every football game during my high school years. I played clarinet (and on rare occasions bass drum) in the marching band which always put on a half-time show.
But we never prayed.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Oh, my. How close we were to a situation where many people with guns couldíve killed many members of Congress. The possible result? Martial law and/or Civil War. Thank God some people are still coming forward to tell the truth.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2015, 10:18:51 PM »
I presume that Pr.  Austin and Mr. Teigen and friends disapprove of events that feature public prayer like the Yankee Stadium prayer service after 9/11, the community prayer service in Newton after Sandy Hook and similar events because they feature public prayer while prayer is supposed to be private and it ends up being occasions for people to show off their piety and caring or pretend to those virtues?
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Steven W Bohler

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Re: Assault on the First Amendment continues at Bremerton WA High School
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2015, 10:32:21 PM »
I presume that Pr.  Austin and Mr. Teigen and friends disapprove of events that feature public prayer like the Yankee Stadium prayer service after 9/11, the community prayer service in Newton after Sandy Hook and similar events because they feature public prayer while prayer is supposed to be private and it ends up being occasions for people to show off their piety and caring or pretend to those virtues?

Ouch.  That's going to leave a mark. :)