Author Topic: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...  (Read 10842 times)

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #135 on: October 08, 2015, 01:59:44 PM »
The issue is not whether we tell children that they "must" do certain things. Of course we do. And if they don't, there are ramifications.

I simply take exception to the lyrics that we "must" be as good as Jesus, i.e., perfect.  And the response, "That is one of my favorite verses- holding Jesus up as a model of obedience.  Sometimes we all need a bit of law"?  The ramification to not being perfect if that's the standard?  Not pretty...
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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #136 on: October 08, 2015, 02:14:57 PM »
Once in Royal David's is not my favorite hymn, but Luther's sermons for the First Sunday after Epiphany (the obedience of the Child Jesus) are not out of tune with the stanza in question:

The Evangelist implies such things as fit with the household routine and the fourth commandment, thus simply attesting his childhood obedience toward his parents. This we should diligently note, so that we not only know what the child Jesus did in his youth and follow his example, but also that we do not doubt but believe that such works, like obedience to parents, have been sanctified and blessed through the child Jesus. Because he, through his person, sanctified these tasks, we should quietly strive to do the same. But you can't tell the world anything. That is why we have disdained such tasks and obedience and rushed into the monasteries. Everything thinks he can do it better and more excellently than the dear child Jesus. Do they not see that such household chores and obedience to father and mother have been sanctified through this holy person, God's Son, who in his youth gathered wood, picked up shavings, started the fire, fetched water, and did other household chores? Truly we are not worthy even to follow his example. (House Postil I:231ff).

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #137 on: October 08, 2015, 02:20:53 PM »
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN

Far and away my favorite tune for it.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #138 on: October 08, 2015, 02:21:30 PM »
Once in Royal David's is not my favorite hymn, but Luther's sermons for the First Sunday after Epiphany (the obedience of the Child Jesus) are not out of tune with the stanza in question:

The Evangelist implies such things as fit with the household routine and the fourth commandment, thus simply attesting his childhood obedience toward his parents. This we should diligently note, so that we not only know what the child Jesus did in his youth and follow his example, but also that we do not doubt but believe that such works, like obedience to parents, have been sanctified and blessed through the child Jesus. Because he, through his person, sanctified these tasks, we should quietly strive to do the same. But you can't tell the world anything. That is why we have disdained such tasks and obedience and rushed into the monasteries. Everything thinks he can do it better and more excellently than the dear child Jesus. Do they not see that such household chores and obedience to father and mother have been sanctified through this holy person, God's Son, who in his youth gathered wood, picked up shavings, started the fire, fetched water, and did other household chores? Truly we are not worthy even to follow his example. (House Postil I:231ff).

In the context of the carol: Follow His example? No problem.  We "must" be as good as He, i.e., perfect?  That's a problem.

If Luther is in tune with the stanza in question, why do you think one cannot find it in any of our hymnals that have the carol?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 02:28:36 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Kurt Weinelt

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #139 on: October 08, 2015, 02:38:58 PM »
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN

Far and away my favorite tune for it.

I prefer "Melita" and "Solid Rock". The John Stainer version in the LSB seems empty and unforgettable when compared to the other two melodies. Just "blah."  :P
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 02:40:39 PM by Kurt Weinelt »
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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #140 on: October 08, 2015, 02:55:17 PM »
I don't see any reason why they added a second tune for My Hope is Built in LSB...

That's really the original tune from "evangelicaldom." I like it sung to "Melita" (as one option in the LBW).

Peace, JOHN
I still prefer  "Magdalen" as the tune...

Weedon

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #141 on: October 08, 2015, 03:05:36 PM »
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.

LutherMan

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #142 on: October 08, 2015, 03:08:49 PM »
While I like the LSB, some dogs still found their way into the hymnal...

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #143 on: October 08, 2015, 03:14:24 PM »
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

You didn't find any of this hymn's stanzas in LBW.
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Eileen Smith

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #144 on: October 08, 2015, 03:30:07 PM »
Once in Royal David's is not my favorite hymn, but Luther's sermons for the First Sunday after Epiphany (the obedience of the Child Jesus) are not out of tune with the stanza in question:

The Evangelist implies such things as fit with the household routine and the fourth commandment, thus simply attesting his childhood obedience toward his parents. This we should diligently note, so that we not only know what the child Jesus did in his youth and follow his example, but also that we do not doubt but believe that such works, like obedience to parents, have been sanctified and blessed through the child Jesus. Because he, through his person, sanctified these tasks, we should quietly strive to do the same. But you can't tell the world anything. That is why we have disdained such tasks and obedience and rushed into the monasteries. Everything thinks he can do it better and more excellently than the dear child Jesus. Do they not see that such household chores and obedience to father and mother have been sanctified through this holy person, God's Son, who in his youth gathered wood, picked up shavings, started the fire, fetched water, and did other household chores? Truly we are not worthy even to follow his example. (House Postil I:231ff).

In the context of the carol: Follow His example? No problem.  We "must" be as good as He, i.e., perfect?  That's a problem.

If Luther is in tune with the stanza in question, why do you think one cannot find it in any of our hymnals that have the carol?

There are two verses that didn't make the cut.  The one we've been discussing:
 
And through all His wondrous childhood,
He would honor and obey,
Love and watch the lowly mother,
In whose gentle arms He lay.
Christian children all should be, mild, obedient, good as he.

And this:
For He is our childhood's pattern, day by day like us He grew.
He was little, way, and helpless, tears and smiles like us He knew,
And He feeleth for our sadness, and He swarth in our gladness. 

I'm probably too cynical to ask "why" for I'd say that it does, indeed, speak to law.  We don't want to place our children such a heavy burden, perhaps not recognizing that all of us are children.  Or, actually, maybe so.   

May I ask you why these verses haven't made it into our hymnals? 

It's unfortunate, as the carol, in its entirety, tells a story just as all our hymns do.  The last two verses of the hymn share the good news that "our Lord is in heaven above, and He leads His children on, to the place where He is gone."  As well, "Set at God's right hand on high; When like stars His children crowned, all in white shall be around."  If we put the verse in question ("must") in context, it isn't such a bad thing (is it?)!

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #145 on: October 08, 2015, 03:31:36 PM »
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

That's exactly what I was thinking of (and I knew that you or BS would bring it up  ;) ) when I stated "In the context of the carol..." Quite different from the context in which our Lord gave us that law. Also, Sunday's (3-year) Gospel also tells us what we need to do to inherit eternal life. Jesus then notes that with man it is impossible, but with God all is possible. That sort of message is missing in the carol.

The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love.


No, but it certainly is suggested. It says, "Christian children all must be...Mild, obedient, good as He." And then it states, "And our eyes at last shall see Him, Through His own redeeming love...And He leads His children on...To the place where He is gone."  The Christian children who "must" be as good as He?

Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false.

Indeed. And I did not so assume. I simply asked for your opinion, which you gave. Thank you.

I wonder why so many of the children's hymnals, etc. changed the original from "must" to "should," as Ms. Smith learned it?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 03:52:33 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #146 on: October 08, 2015, 03:39:20 PM »
May I ask you why these verses haven't made it into our hymnals? 

Because those stanzas are theologically questionable at best.

It's unfortunate, as the carol, in its entirety, tells a story just as all our hymns do.  The last two verses of the hymn share the good news that "our Lord is in heaven above, and He leads His children on, to the place where He is gone."  As well, "Set at God's right hand on high; When like stars His children crowned, all in white shall be around."  If we put the verse in question ("must") in context, it isn't such a bad thing (is it?)!

You imply that it is Gospel. I disagree. The carol states that Christian children "must" be as good as Jesus. Then it states that those children, who must be as good as He, will be with Him in Heaven. There is no Gospel that promises us that this will happen. In fact, one could read the message that Christian children must be as good as Jesus to be one of those children with Him in Heaven.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 04:10:59 PM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #147 on: October 08, 2015, 04:00:47 PM »
back to topic
my least favorite verse in the hymnal is from "Once in Royal David's City"  "Christian children all must be.... Mild obedient good as he."    200% Law there

I found that line in the SBH, but not in LBW, LW, ELW, or LSB. They all removed that stanza.

You didn't find any of this hymn's stanzas in LBW.


That's true. It reduced the six stanzas to 0. The other hymnals reduced them to 5 or 4.
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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #148 on: October 08, 2015, 04:26:44 PM »
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.


I don't think that "perfect" is the best way to translate τέλειος.


There are also translation issues with ἔσεσθε. Should this future verb be understood as a command (as your quote does) or as an indicative: "You shall be complete/mature/perfect Ö." Thus, it is not something we strive for, but is given to us.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Least favorite hymns in the hymnal...
« Reply #149 on: October 08, 2015, 04:45:38 PM »
Actually our Lord is the one who told us that we must be as good as He is, or as His Father is: "Be ye perfect therefore even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The hymn, though, doesn't say that you must be this to merit or deserve His love. Many stanzas of hymns are not included in our hymnals; I think it would be a mistake to assume that every stanza omitted represented something false. I am frankly surprised that Once in Royal David's made it in at all, because it is not a particularly strong text over all. I suspect that its position in the Ceremony of Lessons and Carols is what accounts for its popularity in certain quarters. FWIW.

I don't think that "perfect" is the best way to translate τέλειος.

There are also translation issues with ἔσεσθε. Should this future verb be understood as a command (as your quote does) or as an indicative: "You shall be complete/mature/perfect Ö." Thus, it is not something we strive for, but is given to us.

"Jesus commanded us not to be respectors of persons in loving our friends and hating our enemies (Matthew 5:44-47), but to be complete or "perfect" [teleion] like our heavenly Father (v. 48) in loving friends and enemies alike."

A quite different context than in the carol. I characterized "good as He" as perfect in the sense of being without fault or sinless.

Other uses of teleion:

"Paul said that his preaching was wisdom among those who are "full grown," or "perfect" [teleion] (1 Corinthians 2:6)"

"Paul urged the Corinthians to be "men" [teleion] (i.e. "full grown" or "perfect") instead of babes (1 Corinthians 14:20)."

"In Ephesians 4:13 we read that the body of Christ is to be built up unto a full grown, "mature" [teleion] man."

"When Paul wrote to the Philippians he said (3:15) that some of the Christians were "perfect" [teleion]." (I submit that Paul was not stating that they were without fault or sinless, i.e. as good as Jesus.)

Don Kirchner

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