Author Topic: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments  (Read 2135 times)

John_Hannah

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Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« on: September 09, 2015, 09:33:22 AM »
Pope Francis has made news by adjusting the rules.

1.  Absolution for the sin of abortion is no longer restricted to bishops. Priests may now grant that.

2.  Some applications for marriage annulment may now be adjudicated by bishops; not all will have to go all the way to the Vatican.

QUESTION: Once the dust settles on this news, will these two measures make a difference to those in the pews or on the streets?

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Dave Likeness

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 09:42:20 AM »
One change will be the reduced cost for an annulment. It was
previously based on the applicant's ability to pay.  For example
Senator Ted Kennedy paid much more than Mr. John Doe from
rural Iowa.  One report mentioned the costs would be eliminated
except for a handling fee.

Bottom Line:  In the past some annulments could cost $100,000
and now some dioceses have waived their fees.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:21:34 AM by Dave Likeness »

LutherMan

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2015, 10:26:59 AM »
I never understood how a marriage like Ted and Joan Kennedy could be annulled since they were married in the church and had legitimate children...

Terry W Culler

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2015, 10:35:09 AM »
I never understood how a marriage like Ted and Joan Kennedy could be annulled since they were married in the church and had legitimate children...

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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2015, 11:31:30 AM »
I never understood how a marriage like Ted and Joan Kennedy could be annulled since they were married in the church and had legitimate children...

I can't say I understand the practice or principles involved. 
This helps a bit http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05054c.htm

Strictly speaking concerning the Bible,

If
1) The only exception to divorce is adultery - Matt 19:9
and
2) Even a lustful glance is adultery - Matt 5:28

then I suspect that there are very few people that don't have grounds for divorce. 

But I am glad that the temporal death penalty is no longer applied - Deut 22:22
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 11:33:17 AM by SomeoneWrites »
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Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 11:48:59 AM »
I never understood how a marriage like Ted and Joan Kennedy could be annulled since they were married in the church and had legitimate children...

I can't say I understand the practice or principles involved. 
This helps a bit http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05054c.htm

Strictly speaking concerning the Bible,

If
1) The only exception to divorce is adultery - Matt 19:9
and
2) Even a lustful glance is adultery - Matt 5:28

then I suspect that there are very few people that don't have grounds for divorce. 

But I am glad that the temporal death penalty is no longer applied - Deut 22:22


Remarriages are not allowed. That's why a previous marriage is "annulled" before there can be a second marriage. I believe that in their thinking, a divorce does not end the first marriage.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

SomeoneWrites

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 11:51:00 AM »


Remarriages are not allowed. That's why a previous marriage is "annulled" before there can be a second marriage. I believe that in their thinking, a divorce does not end the first marriage.

That makes a ton more sense.  Thank you.
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Eileen Smith

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 11:52:42 AM »
There is an interesting article that I had clipped for a friend and will try to remember pieces of it herein…

An annulment does not deny that the marital relationship existed nor does it consider the children suddenly illegitimate.  There are criteria for a marriage and an annulment (or the review that precedes the action) allows that one or more criteria was missing from the marriage.  Perhaps a partner was unfaithful or there was spousal abuse.   

But to Pastor Hannah's question - I certainly think it will have an impact, a word of grace, to those who are living outside of the church for reasons of divorce or abortion and now hear a word of welcome.   

Will it make a difference to those in the pews?  I asked this question [regarding priests absolving the sin of abortion] of my Friday support group, all of whom are daily pew folks at the local Roman church.  Each one thought that priests always had the authority to absolve all sins.  It seems to me that some (many?) in the pews will support the recent decisions of this Pope and for those who disagree it won't be something that keeps them from the church.

The street is an interesting question.  People who are either lapsed Catholics or have had no relationship to the Roman Catholic church seem to have a rather poor view of the church (not completely the fault of the church). This may allow them to see the church in what they deem a more gracious light, but I'm not convinced it will bring them into the pews.  For those lapsed Catholics who have often used some of these issues as worthy reasons for not attending church - I think they'll find some new ones.

 

Norman Teigen

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 12:13:04 PM »
Religion Dispatches ran a story recently on the reaction from some nuns to the statement by Pope Francis.http://religiondispatches.org/nuns-say-pope-still-doesnt-get-women-and-abortion/

"Responding to Pope Francis’ announcement that during the upcoming “Year of Mercy” all priests would be empowered to forgive women who have had abortions and return them to full communion with the Catholic Church, the National Coalition of American Nuns said that Francis “still doesn’t get it” when it comes to women and abortion.

"In a statement, NCAN acknowledged the “Pope’s desire to be pastoral” and said that “making any statement about abortion might seem to be helpful.” However, Sister Donna Quinn of NCAN told The Independent that Francis “gets it within the Vatican sense and about the hierarchy, but he still won’t let women have full membership with the Catholic tradition.”

"NCAN said “women do not find this new ruling very affirming” for the following reasons:

    It does not respect the moral authority women have in making decisions for their own reproductive autonomy.
    It still holds those decisions made by women as sinful.
    It does not acknowledge that sperm from males produced these unplanned pregnancies.
    It only serves to highlight the fact that women should be eligible for all sacraments.
    It continues the practice of men proclaiming what is right and just for women."

NCAN invited Pope Francis to meet with them “to see how we might help each other with Justice issues for women.”
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 12:15:51 PM by Norman Teigen »
Norman Teigen

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 12:34:20 PM »
Religion Dispatches ran a story recently on the reaction from some nuns to the statement by Pope Francis.http://religiondispatches.org/nuns-say-pope-still-doesnt-get-women-and-abortion/

"Responding to Pope Francis’ announcement that during the upcoming “Year of Mercy” all priests would be empowered to forgive women who have had abortions and return them to full communion with the Catholic Church, the National Coalition of American Nuns said that Francis “still doesn’t get it” when it comes to women and abortion.

"In a statement, NCAN acknowledged the “Pope’s desire to be pastoral” and said that “making any statement about abortion might seem to be helpful.” However, Sister Donna Quinn of NCAN told The Independent that Francis “gets it within the Vatican sense and about the hierarchy, but he still won’t let women have full membership with the Catholic tradition.”

"NCAN said “women do not find this new ruling very affirming” for the following reasons:

    It does not respect the moral authority women have in making decisions for their own reproductive autonomy.
    It still holds those decisions made by women as sinful.
    It does not acknowledge that sperm from males produced these unplanned pregnancies.
    It only serves to highlight the fact that women should be eligible for all sacraments.
    It continues the practice of men proclaiming what is right and just for women."

NCAN invited Pope Francis to meet with them “to see how we might help each other with Justice issues for women.”

Fringiest of fringe groups - the kind of order that is only going to get mentioned in a "journalistic" outlet like Religion Dispatches that has a clear agenda to push.  The couple of thousand of NCAN members (not all of whom are nuns or even Roman Catholic) represent no one but themselves.

Dave Benke

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2015, 01:06:13 PM »
There is an interesting article that I had clipped for a friend and will try to remember pieces of it herein…

An annulment does not deny that the marital relationship existed nor does it consider the children suddenly illegitimate.  There are criteria for a marriage and an annulment (or the review that precedes the action) allows that one or more criteria was missing from the marriage.  Perhaps a partner was unfaithful or there was spousal abuse.   

But to Pastor Hannah's question - I certainly think it will have an impact, a word of grace, to those who are living outside of the church for reasons of divorce or abortion and now hear a word of welcome.   

Will it make a difference to those in the pews?  I asked this question [regarding priests absolving the sin of abortion] of my Friday support group, all of whom are daily pew folks at the local Roman church.  Each one thought that priests always had the authority to absolve all sins.  It seems to me that some (many?) in the pews will support the recent decisions of this Pope and for those who disagree it won't be something that keeps them from the church.

The street is an interesting question.  People who are either lapsed Catholics or have had no relationship to the Roman Catholic church seem to have a rather poor view of the church (not completely the fault of the church). This may allow them to see the church in what they deem a more gracious light, but I'm not convinced it will bring them into the pews.  For those lapsed Catholics who have often used some of these issues as worthy reasons for not attending church - I think they'll find some new ones.

In response to John's question, I agree with Eileen. 

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John_Hannah

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 01:43:46 PM »

Will it make a difference to those in the pews?  I asked this question [regarding priests absolving the sin of abortion] of my Friday support group, all of whom are daily pew folks at the local Roman church.  Each one thought that priests always had the authority to absolve all sins. 


So did I. This one surprised me. Certainly every Lutheran pastor has the authority to forgive all sins.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 02:46:06 PM »

Some sins require repentance and forgiveness before one can receive communion. Others do not.
Mortal versus Venial Sin

A serious, grave or mortal sin is the knowing and willful violation of God's law in a serious matter, for example, idolatry, adultery, murder, slander. These are all things gravely contrary to the love we owe God and, because of Him, our neighbor. As Jesus taught, when condemning even looking at a woman lustfully, sin can be both interior (choices of the will alone) or exterior (choices of the will carried into action). A man who willfully desires to fornicate, steal, murder or some other grave sin, has already seriously offended God by choosing interiorly what God has prohibited.
Mortal sin is called mortal because it is the "spiritual" death of the soul (separation from God). If we are in the state of grace it loses this supernatural life for us. If we die without repenting we will lose Him for eternity. However, by turning our hearts back to Him and receiving the Sacrament of Penance we are restored to His friendship. Catholics are not allowed to receive Communion if they have unconfessed mortal sins.
Venial sins are slight sins. They do not break our friendship with God, although they injure it. They involve disobedience of the law of God in slight (venial) matters. If we gossip and destroy a person's reputation it would be a mortal sin. However, normally gossip is about trivial matters and only venially sinful. Additionally, something that is otherwise a mortal sin (e.g. slander) may be in a particular case only a venial sin. The person may have acted without reflection or under force of habit. Thus, not fully intending the action their guilt before God is reduced. It is always good to remember, especially those who are trying to be faithful but sometimes fall, that for mortal sin it must not only be 1) serious matter, but 2) the person must know it is serious and then 3) freely commit it.
These two categories of sin are explicitly to be found in Sacred Scripture. In the Old Covenant there were sins that merited the death penalty and sins that could be expiated by an offering. This Law was a teacher that prepared the way for the faith (Gal. 3:24). In the New Covenant these material categories are replaced by spiritual ones, natural death by eternal death. There are thus daily faults for which we must daily ask forgiveness (Mt. 6:12), for even the "just man falls seven times a day" (Prov. 24:16), and mortal faults that separate the sinner from God (1 Cor. 6:9-10) for all eternity.Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm
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Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2015, 04:00:22 PM »

Will it make a difference to those in the pews?  I asked this question [regarding priests absolving the sin of abortion] of my Friday support group, all of whom are daily pew folks at the local Roman church.  Each one thought that priests always had the authority to absolve all sins. 


So did I. This one surprised me. Certainly every Lutheran pastor has the authority to forgive all sins.

Peace, JOHN

Ditto.
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James_Gale

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Re: Pope Francis-Absolution and Annulments
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2015, 04:33:26 PM »

Will it make a difference to those in the pews?  I asked this question [regarding priests absolving the sin of abortion] of my Friday support group, all of whom are daily pew folks at the local Roman church.  Each one thought that priests always had the authority to absolve all sins. 


So did I. This one surprised me. Certainly every Lutheran pastor has the authority to forgive all sins.

Peace, JOHN


My understanding has been that a diocesan Bishop has had the authority to delegate to all priests acting within the diocese the ability to declare absolution for procuring an abortion.  In US dioceses, this blanket delegation apparently has been common.