Author Topic: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"  (Read 7594 times)

Steverem

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WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« on: September 08, 2015, 09:54:45 AM »
I've been blissfully away from this forum for the last 10 days or so, so my apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but what thoughts do folks have about the following "ten-second sermon" that appeared on the Women of the ELCA's Facebook feed, based on on Mark 7:27 ("Jesus said, 'Let the childeren be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs.'"):

"If our lord Jesus can make an error in judgment, we mere humans certainly will.  The problem is not in the mistake, the problem is in failing to acknowledge it.  Jesus said he was sorry by healing a precious daughter.  How will you say it?"


Team Hesse

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2015, 10:00:04 AM »
There are some internet/facebook sites that it is not safe to go to.....


Lou

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2015, 10:33:27 AM »
In the quoted section it is the first and third sentences that are in need of some good editing.  The second sentence is fine.  If said slow enough, you could fill your ten second limit.  Then the fourth sentence would be superfluous and simply dropped from the sermon manuscript.

Jesus made an error in judgment?  Our Lord made a mistake?  Huh.  Looks like I can pack up my office and we can shut the church doors and divvy up the proceeds from the sale.  Then I'll buy a pontoon boat and the kids and I will fish and my wife and I will drink some good Pinot.

If I wanted to, I could say that this ten second sermon is blasphemous.  A simple definition of blasphemy is bringing God down to the level of all the other gods, of making Him nothing.  The ten second sermon does that. 

If there was an editor for this, it just reaffirms that editors don't catch everything.  I know I miss a lot of stuff. 

Jeremy
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Steverem

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2015, 10:40:23 AM »
In the quoted section it is the first and third sentences that are in need of some good editing.  The second sentence is fine.  If said slow enough, you could fill your ten second limit.  Then the fourth sentence would be superfluous and simply dropped from the sermon manuscript.

Jesus made an error in judgment?  Our Lord made a mistake?  Huh.  Looks like I can pack up my office and we can shut the church doors and divvy up the proceeds from the sale.  Then I'll buy a pontoon boat and the kids and I will fish and my wife and I will drink some good Pinot.

If I wanted to, I could say that this ten second sermon is blasphemous.  A simple definition of blasphemy is bringing God down to the level of all the other gods, of making Him nothing.  The ten second sermon does that. 

If there was an editor for this, it just reaffirms that editors don't catch everything.  I know I miss a lot of stuff. 

Jeremy

I have to admit, I'm a little impressed.  Creating such a clear, demonstrable example of heresy in such a limited time frame is not easy to do.

Dave Likeness

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2015, 10:53:28 AM »
Homiletics Professor George Hoyer of Concordia Seminary,
St. Louis, said, "Sermonettes are for Christianettes."

He meant that short sermons are for stunted and shallow
Christians.  Professor Hoyer would abhor the 10 second or
10 minute sermon from a Lutheran pulpit. 

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2015, 11:34:19 AM »
In the quoted section it is the first and third sentences that are in need of some good editing.  The second sentence is fine.  If said slow enough, you could fill your ten second limit.  Then the fourth sentence would be superfluous and simply dropped from the sermon manuscript.

Jesus made an error in judgment?  Our Lord made a mistake?  Huh.  Looks like I can pack up my office and we can shut the church doors and divvy up the proceeds from the sale.  Then I'll buy a pontoon boat and the kids and I will fish and my wife and I will drink some good Pinot.

If I wanted to, I could say that this ten second sermon is blasphemous.  A simple definition of blasphemy is bringing God down to the level of all the other gods, of making Him nothing.  The ten second sermon does that. 

If there was an editor for this, it just reaffirms that editors don't catch everything.  I know I miss a lot of stuff. 

Jeremy

I have to admit, I'm a little impressed.  Creating such a clear, demonstrable example of heresy in such a limited time frame is not easy to do.

Aye. 

Records have shown that it takes me seventeen minutes to express such heresy.  But I'm working on it!  I will un-Jesus Jesus in less than five minutes if it's the last thing I do!

Jeremy
A Lutheran pastor growing into all sorts of things.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2015, 11:37:18 AM »
If Jesus didn't make a mistake, then this woman and/or her daughter were "dogs" in his mind?

While κυνάριον is only used in this story (Mt 17:26,27; Mk 7:27, 28), the (probably) equivalent κύων is used in:

Mt 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under foot and turn and maul you.

Lu 16:21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

Phl 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh!

2P 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “The dog turns back to its own vomit,” and “The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.” [Pr 26:11]

Re 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

It is also used in Dt 23:18 in reference to male temple prostitutes.

How do you understand Jesus' designation of the Gentile woman as a "dog"?


In addition, the OT pictures the Lord as a God who "repents" (changes his mind), e.g., Jer 18:8, 10; Jonah 3:9, 10; Joel 2:13-14? If the Father repents (μετανοέω in these verses in the LXX), why can't Jesus?
       
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

SomeoneWrites

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 11:59:46 AM »
If Jesus didn't make a mistake, then this woman and/or her daughter were "dogs" in his mind?

While κυνάριον is only used in this story (Mt 17:26,27; Mk 7:27, 28), the (probably) equivalent κύων is used in:

Mt 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under foot and turn and maul you.

Lu 16:21 who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man’s table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

Phl 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh!

2P 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “The dog turns back to its own vomit,” and “The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.” [Pr 26:11]

Re 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

It is also used in Dt 23:18 in reference to male temple prostitutes.

How do you understand Jesus' designation of the Gentile woman as a "dog"?


In addition, the OT pictures the Lord as a God who "repents" (changes his mind), e.g., Jer 18:8, 10; Jonah 3:9, 10; Joel 2:13-14? If the Father repents (μετανοέω in these verses in the LXX), why can't Jesus?
     

I'm fine with Jesus making a metaphor to teach something to future readers. 

On the other hand, I've never fully grasped μετανοέω in relation to the Father's actions.  I do think any theology can claim an explanation to it.  Still messes with my head. 
LCMS raised
LCMS theology major
LCMS sem grad
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Steverem

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 12:16:54 PM »

If Jesus didn't make a mistake, then this woman and/or her daughter were "dogs" in his mind?
     

Not sure why you think those are the only two possible understandings.  Seems to me to be very much in the rabbinic tradition to express what might be the view of the day in order to have the listener think through the issue and formulate a proper response.  I always thought Jesus' question was more intended for those listening than to the woman to whom it was addressed.

Of course, the ELCAW interpretation has the God of the universe, in human form, grossly misunderstanding a basic theological truth.  That is to say, he misunderstood his own nature, his own mission, and his own relationship to those to whom he was sent.  Why would we worship such a God?  What else might he be wrong about?

Jeremy Loesch

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2015, 12:40:01 PM »
"If the Father repents, why can't Jesus?" 

Please give me a moment while I pack up my office.  The Church is now closed.  I better update my resume. 

What does Jesus have to repent of? 

And about dogs.  Read what our Lord says through St. John the Evangelist: "The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him.  He came to His own, yet His own people did not receive Him.  But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."  (John 1:9-13) 

God the Father sent His Son Jesus to the house of Israel.  But over and over again we read of the house of Israel giving Jesus the stiff arm.  The months of July and August gave us much of the Gospel of Mark.  It was not insignificant that Jesus crossed back and forth on the Sea of Galilee doing the work the Father gave Him to do and saying the words the Father gave Him to say.  Many of the people who should have known who Jesus was and recognized what He was doing refused to acknowledge Him.  So Jesus went to others, yes, to the dogs, to those who were outside of the household of faith.  'But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born...of God.' 

Jesus spoke the truth.  (He can do no other thing.)  Food for the children should not first be given to the dogs.

The woman spoke the truth too.  The dogs eventually eat the glorious crumbs that fall from the master's table.  The woman spoke from great faith.  How did she get it?  That's not our question to ask.  She spoke from faith and that is enough for us.  It was enough for Jesus, as the demon departed the daughter of the woman.  Our Lord and the woman both spoke the truth. 

When the master's table is the table of the Master Messiah, the crumbs are not crumbs.  They are morsels that sustain and nourish.  They are rich food that is given to all.  Was Jesus not sent on a rescue mission that included both Jew and Gentile?   

There is no shame in speaking the truth or in hearing the truth.  There is no shame in being a dog nor in acknowledging that.  Here is a common truth that unites you and me: "O almighty God, merciful Father, I, a poor, miserable sinner, confess unto You all my sins and iniquities with which I have ever offended You and justly deserved Your temporal and eternal punishment.  But I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of them, and I pray You of Your boundless mercy and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to be gracious and merciful to me, a poor, sinful being."  "Upon this your confession, I, by virtue of my office, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God unto all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."  "Amen." 

Amen.

Jeremy
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Daniel L. Gard

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2015, 12:42:45 PM »
Such a Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. The WELCA Jesus is flawed and imperfect and cannot be the savior of anyone. I reject the WELCA "Jesus" as a false Christ.

I can only pray that this was an error of judgment and poor theological oversight of the WELCA. I am incredibly saddened to see such statements from my former Church body.

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 01:22:37 PM »
I take Jesus to be lovingly teasing the faith he has planted in this woman into growth and a good witness.  She in fact teases back a bit.  Ah, daddy and mommy did not get you any Christmas gifts this year little kid (all the while we know the closet is stuffed with them) and we will not let the kid cry over our tease but enjoy the moment five minutes later as they are carried in by the handful.
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Eileen Smith

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2015, 01:39:36 PM »
Do I think Jesus made a "mistake."  No.  Do I think Jesus was tempt to turn someone away who was not of his own culture, own ethnicity - yes.  Hebrews 4:15:   For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested[a] as we are, yet without sin.

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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2015, 01:48:37 PM »
I think this woman shows  tremendous courage. She is in agony over her sick child, she approaches the one power who can cure her child, this power is overwhelming and denies her the help – and yet she continues in the only way she knows how within the absurdity of the situation. This is more of an existential crisis then we puny moderns deal with when thinking that God is asleep or that he doesn't exist. She shows tremendous faith.
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Re: WELCA "Ten-Second Sermon"
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2015, 02:19:18 PM »

If Jesus didn't make a mistake, then this woman and/or her daughter were "dogs" in his mind?
     

Not sure why you think those are the only two possible understandings.  Seems to me to be very much in the rabbinic tradition to express what might be the view of the day in order to have the listener think through the issue and formulate a proper response.  I always thought Jesus' question was more intended for those listening than to the woman to whom it was addressed.

Of course, the ELCAW interpretation has the God of the universe, in human form, grossly misunderstanding a basic theological truth.  That is to say, he misunderstood his own nature, his own mission, and his own relationship to those to whom he was sent.  Why would we worship such a God?  What else might he be wrong about?

This is how I have explained it:

Jesus is reluctant to grant her prayer at this time.  Why?

1.  Because, like St. Paul who went to the synagogue first, then to the Gentiles, Jesus' mission is to go to the people of Israel first.  Jesus' incarnation and ministry is the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel.   It reminds us Gentiles that, in sending the Gospel to the nations, God does not forget or bypass His people Israel. 

2.  The Syrophoenician woman is like a precocious student.  She anticipates the answer before the teacher finishes the question.  Just as Jesus avoids the crowds who would make him King, tells the demons to remain silent, and warns those he has healed to tell no one, so he is reluctant to begin the mission to the Gentiles before it is time.  When will it be time?  After he has suffered, died, been buried and risen from the dead.  There are things he must do before the important mission to the Gentiles begins.  After all, he came not only to give that woman's daughter temporal relief, but  redeem her from sin, death and the devil to live in his kingdom in everlasting righteousness, innocence and blessedness. 

And yet, as Jesus promises, the one who prays persistently and in faith is heard.  Even though time was not right, like the unjust judge, God responds to her persistent faith.
David Charlton  

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