Author Topic: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again  (Read 3131 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2015, 01:05:10 PM »
If a school freely chooses to change its policies, they're free to do so.  But before the school changed they were threatened with legal action.   Was that threat unequivocally withdrawn  or is it still there for a any other school out of conformity?
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Charles Austin

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2015, 01:07:55 PM »
Thinking the worst again, Pastor Fienen?
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. It is now clear that the election of 2020 was not stolen. But we see now how it was nearly stolen after the balloting. Some of our top officials assisted by corrupt lawyers, attempted to steal the electoral college. Some true patriots saved us.

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2015, 01:08:12 PM »
If a school freely chooses to change its policies, they're free to do so.  But before the school changed they were threatened with legal action.   Was that threat unequivocally withdrawn  or is it still there for a any other school out of conformity?

There was also a huge backlash on social media.  I.e., the bullies came out to play.  And yes, the Mayor came out strongly against the school, threatening legal action and whipping up the crowd.

Mayor Hales said:

"Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those arenít just nice words. They are also the law...  We believe St. Maryís Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values."

So what is being enforced is not just the "letter" of the law (as he believes the law is written -- something not at all clear regarding First Amendment protections from those such as him), but also its "spirit" -- a rather amorphous thing.  Even more, the insistence is on conformity, too, not just with the law but with what he believes the "shared values" of Portland to be; cross those, and risk governmentally-encouraged legal problems and social ostracization.  As he says, he sees his role as enforcing shared values, and he is the guy with the guns here locally.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 01:15:02 PM by Scott Yakimow »

Dan Fienen

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2015, 01:33:24 PM »
Thinking the worst again, Pastor Fienen?
How, given what has transpired, is my question unreasonable.  I assume that you consider the mayor of Los Angeles to be unreasonable and simply thinking the worst because he has made it his business to work to prepare Los Angeles for a major earthquake and the chaos that would follow.  On the other hand, eleven, twelve years ago, the governments of New Orleans and Louisiana were spot on by not thinking the worst that a hurricane could do, right?  Preparing for a hurricane like Katrina would have been just paranoia, right?

Similarly, Winston Churchill was just plain nuts for thinking that Nazi Germany might try to take over Eurasia.  There he was thinking the worst and look what happened.

British statesman Benjamin Disraeli must have been supremely foolish when he said, "I am prepared for the worst, but hope for the best."  According to our wise counselor we are to hope for the best and ignore the worst.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 02:03:41 PM by Dan Fienen »
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Team Hesse

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2015, 01:47:55 PM »
If a school freely chooses to change its policies, they're free to do so.  But before the school changed they were threatened with legal action.   Was that threat unequivocally withdrawn  or is it still there for a any other school out of conformity?

There was also a huge backlash on social media.  I.e., the bullies came out to play.  And yes, the Mayor came out strongly against the school, threatening legal action and whipping up the crowd.

Mayor Hales said:

"Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those arenít just nice words. They are also the law...  We believe St. Maryís Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values."

So what is being enforced is not just the "letter" of the law (as he believes the law is written -- something not at all clear regarding First Amendment protections from those such as him), but also its "spirit" -- a rather amorphous thing.  Even more, the insistence is on conformity, too, not just with the law but with what he believes the "shared values" of Portland to be; cross those, and risk governmentally-encouraged legal problems and social ostracization.  As he says, he sees his role as enforcing shared values, and he is the guy with the guns here locally.


I like the PNW..... but I am awful glad I no longer live on the west side.


Friends of mine farm ground owned by the Sisters. At one time I attempted to rent some of their ownership. They have a long established presence and reputation in Washington County. It is truly unfortunate that they should become the target in this matter. Someday there will be a turn....it will not be pretty when it comes.


Lou

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2015, 02:12:18 PM »
From what I've read, I haven't seen that there were legal challenges, i.e., a lawsuit. This seems to have been a situation that was "tried" in the public media. The counselor's contract was terminated with a severance package that included silence about the termination which she did not accept, went public.
"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Team Hesse

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2015, 02:21:58 PM »

Mayor Hales said:

"Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those arenít just nice words. They are also the law...  We believe St. Maryís Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values."




One thing not mentioned here is that St Mary's Academy is in the city of Beaverton, not Portland. Mayor Hales has no jurisdiction in the matter. He is posturing with these statements for the sake of whatever constituency he is posturing for.


Lou

scott8

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2015, 03:03:04 PM »

Mayor Hales said:

"Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those arenít just nice words. They are also the law...  We believe St. Maryís Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values."

One thing not mentioned here is that St Mary's Academy is in the city of Beaverton, not Portland. Mayor Hales has no jurisdiction in the matter. He is posturing with these statements for the sake of whatever constituency he is posturing for.


Lou

Pretty sure it is in Portland -- right downtown: http://www.stmaryspdx.org
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 03:04:44 PM by Scott Yakimow »

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2015, 03:38:55 PM »

Mayor Hales said:

"Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those arenít just nice words. They are also the law...  We believe St. Maryís Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values."

One thing not mentioned here is that St Mary's Academy is in the city of Beaverton, not Portland. Mayor Hales has no jurisdiction in the matter. He is posturing with these statements for the sake of whatever constituency he is posturing for.


Lou

Pretty sure it is in Portland -- right downtown: http://www.stmaryspdx.org


Interesting. The St Mary's Academy I knew was/is at the intersection of Murray Boulevard and Farmington Road not to far from downtown Beaverton. I am quite sure that is the original. The Kelly farm at Reedville and the Algesheimer estate were part of the original patrimony. I could tell you stories.....


Lou

DCharlton

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2015, 03:42:11 PM »
Thinking the worst again, Pastor Fienen?

We're still waiting for you answer on this question, Pr. Austin.

They caved:   http://www.kgw.com/story/news/2015/08/26/catholic-school-rejects-hire-due--same-sex-marriage-view/32381067/ .

But ... but ... Charles assured us that churches would never be coerced to hire active homosexuals/marry same-sex couples/disavow their opposition to homosexual behavior.  Is it possible that our own humble correspondent has underestimated the power and the speed of the zeitgeist to dismantle millennia of social convention?
David Charlton  

Was Algul Siento a divinity school?

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2015, 06:59:46 PM »

Mayor Hales said:

"Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those arenít just nice words. They are also the law...  We believe St. Maryís Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values."

One thing not mentioned here is that St Mary's Academy is in the city of Beaverton, not Portland. Mayor Hales has no jurisdiction in the matter. He is posturing with these statements for the sake of whatever constituency he is posturing for.


Lou

Pretty sure it is in Portland -- right downtown: http://www.stmaryspdx.org


Interesting. The St Mary's Academy I knew was/is at the intersection of Murray Boulevard and Farmington Road not to far from downtown Beaverton. I am quite sure that is the original. The Kelly farm at Reedville and the Algesheimer estate were part of the original patrimony. I could tell you stories.....


There is a Sisters of St. Mary of Oregon in Beaverton. They have Valley Catholic Schools. http://www.ssmo.org/

"The church Ö had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2015, 04:57:57 AM »
That is correct.  St. Marys Academy is downtown Portland.  It was founded as the first private school in Oregon in 1859 by the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary's_Academy_%28Portland,_Oregon%29

"St. Mary's was founded by twelve sisters from the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary in 1859, at the request of archbishop FranÁois Norbert Blanchet. Only two of the sisters spoke English; the others spoke French. They traveled from Montreal via ship and rail to Fort Vancouver where Blanchet had established a school on property he purchased from Daniel H. Lownsdale in 1857. The property had a two-story house, which became the school. St. Mary's opened in the same location with six female students (three Catholic, two Jewish, one Protestant) on Monday, November 7, 1859, 17 days after they reached Portland."

St. Mary's of the Valley is in Beaverton, and runs Valley Catholic among other things:  http://www.ssmo.org/who-we-are/

This is a different order of Sisters which was founded right here in Oregon about 130 years ago (1886).  Valley Catholic used to be called St. Mary's of the Valley.

I don't have time to post much more on the situation right now, but it is tense.  There are discussions ongoing with the Archdiocese, and the only joint statement out after the last meeting is:

   ďThe Archdiocese and St. Maryís Academy are in discussion regarding the recent policy change by the Board of Directors and committed to continued conversation.Ē
 
I ask for your prayers for the school and situation.

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2015, 07:14:31 AM »
Now tis clear thank you.


Lou