Author Topic: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again  (Read 3129 times)

pearson

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2015, 12:36:19 PM »

You could probably guess that I think these things are socially constructed.


OK.  Are socially constructed and promulgated public norms enforced by the political state on principled private transactions between private entities morally legitimate?

Tom Pearson

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2015, 12:54:20 PM »

You could probably guess that I think these things are socially constructed.


OK.  Are socially constructed and promulgated public norms enforced by the political state on principled private transactions between private entities morally legitimate?

Tom Pearson

It seems to depend on the principles and transactions.
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David Garner

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2015, 01:25:42 PM »

I think the problem is the loudest voices calling for tolerance, freedom, diversity, etc., tend to find the limits of all of those virtues at the end of their own noses.

I'm not sure I agree.  I think it's a problem of shorthand.   

I think the reality is people don't view "tolerance" as it is classically constructed, but rather as "tolerance" for certain values, which is really nothing more than groupthink tyranny.  Tolerance is literally what it sounds like -- tolerating those with whom you have the most vehement agreements.  Whether tolerance is a virtue or not is up for debate.  But it is rank intolerance to want to punish people legally, financially and socially because they hold viewpoints you disagree with. 

Now who in American politics right now is doing that?  And doing so under the banner of "tolerance?"
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SomeoneWrites

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2015, 02:06:27 PM »

I think the problem is the loudest voices calling for tolerance, freedom, diversity, etc., tend to find the limits of all of those virtues at the end of their own noses.

I'm not sure I agree.  I think it's a problem of shorthand.   

I think the reality is people don't view "tolerance" as it is classically constructed, but rather as "tolerance" for certain values, which is really nothing more than groupthink tyranny.  Tolerance is literally what it sounds like -- tolerating those with whom you have the most vehement agreements.  Whether tolerance is a virtue or not is up for debate.  But it is rank intolerance to want to punish people legally, financially and socially because they hold viewpoints you disagree with. 

Now who in American politics right now is doing that?  And doing so under the banner of "tolerance?"

I don't think it's groupthink tyranny anymore than I'd say orthodoxy is groupthink tyranny. 

I don't think pro tolerance groups want to be lumped in with those of whom you speak, any more than Christians want to be grouped with westboro, Muslims with ISIS, feminists with "tumblrites", etc. 
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Matt Hummel

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2015, 02:09:11 PM »
One thing to keep in mind with the school. I f I am reading the story correctly, it is a non-diocesan school, run as a mission of an Order of Sisters.

There are some Orders whose theology/ecclesiology makes the more "forward" elements of the ELCA look like refugees from the Fellowship of John the Steadfast.

My point is, it may not have been the caving to jackbooted heel of Progressive Tolerance that it seems. They may have wanted to all along.
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MaddogLutheran

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2015, 02:13:28 PM »
One thing to keep in mind with the school. I f I am reading the story correctly, it is a non-diocesan school, run as a mission of an Order of Sisters.

There are some Orders whose theology/ecclesiology makes the more "forward" elements of the ELCA look like refugees from the Fellowship of John the Steadfast.

My point is, it may not have been the caving to jackbooted heel of Progressive Tolerance that it seems. They may have wanted to all along.
Agreed.  What is likely to happen next is that the local ordinary (bishop) will weigh in...as recently happened in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia in a similar situation recently.  I have to believe there is still another shoe to drop.

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2015, 02:19:48 PM »
One thing to keep in mind with the school. I f I am reading the story correctly, it is a non-diocesan school, run as a mission of an Order of Sisters.

There are some Orders whose theology/ecclesiology makes the more "forward" elements of the ELCA look like refugees from the Fellowship of John the Steadfast.

My point is, it may not have been the caving to jackbooted heel of Progressive Tolerance that it seems. They may have wanted to all along.
Agreed.  What is likely to happen next is that the local ordinary (bishop) will weigh in...as recently happened in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia in a similar situation recently.  I have to believe there is still another shoe to drop.

Sterling Spatz

What makes that story of interest is that the School made the decision to fire in the first place. Abp. Chaput's words just backed them up.
Matt Hummel


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David Garner

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2015, 03:24:42 PM »

I think the problem is the loudest voices calling for tolerance, freedom, diversity, etc., tend to find the limits of all of those virtues at the end of their own noses.

I'm not sure I agree.  I think it's a problem of shorthand.   

I think the reality is people don't view "tolerance" as it is classically constructed, but rather as "tolerance" for certain values, which is really nothing more than groupthink tyranny.  Tolerance is literally what it sounds like -- tolerating those with whom you have the most vehement agreements.  Whether tolerance is a virtue or not is up for debate.  But it is rank intolerance to want to punish people legally, financially and socially because they hold viewpoints you disagree with. 

Now who in American politics right now is doing that?  And doing so under the banner of "tolerance?"

I don't think it's groupthink tyranny anymore than I'd say orthodoxy is groupthink tyranny. 

I don't think pro tolerance groups want to be lumped in with those of whom you speak, any more than Christians want to be grouped with westboro, Muslims with ISIS, feminists with "tumblrites", etc.

I'm not sure what a "pro tolerance group" is.  But when the Mayor of Portland suggests people ought have "shared values" enshrined into law that punishes those who don't share said values, I don't know what to call that but groupthink, and inasmuch as the government secures the proper thinking by force of arms, tyranny.
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2015, 05:36:05 PM »
The question is: may the political state legitimately (i.e., morally) exercise that coercive power over private entities engaged in private transactions within a free society?
 

That's one question, but it is not the only one, especially when the state is granted limited powers.  So one could acknowledge that a political state may do so, but that particular governments -- say, that of the United States of Amerca -- may not even though others -- say one (or more) of the 50 states, or counties, or cities, etc. within the USA, along with many of the free societies in other lands -- may.

Pax, Steven+
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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2015, 05:39:20 PM »
The mayor of Portland has already stated the following: (my emphasis):

“Portland is a city that embraces rights and opportunities for everyone. Those aren’t just nice words. They are also the law," ...  "We believe St. Mary’s Academy, and every other public, private and nonprofit organization in the city, should follow the letter and the spirit of the law, and our shared values.”

Oddly, this is not the first time Oregon has tried to tell the school founded by the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary to get in line.  See the following landmark Supreme Court case for religious schools.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierce_v._Society_of_Sisters

"On November 7, 1922, the voters of Oregon passed an initiative amending Oregon Law Section 5259, the Compulsory Education Act. The citizens' initiative was primarily aimed at eliminating parochial schools, including Catholic schools"
Did you ever hear about the Bennett Law?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bennett_Law

More appropriate, especially in Oregon, is the Blaine Amendment.

Pax, Steven+
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:42:11 PM by The Rev. Steven P. Tibbetts, STS »
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pearson

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2015, 06:17:14 PM »


OK.  Are socially constructed and promulgated public norms enforced by the political state on principled private transactions between private entities morally legitimate?


It seems to depend on the principles and transactions.


So, you don't really have an answer to the question.  That's fine.

Tom Pearson

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2015, 06:29:27 PM »


So, you don't really have an answer to the question.  That's fine.

Tom Pearson

Dude. 
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Dan Fienen

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2015, 11:28:10 AM »
I raised this question as an aside before, but I think that it is important enough to be actually considered.  The LCMS has a university in Portland, Oregon.  Does this case raise concerns for our continuing to operate this university as a Lutheran university in this community that seems bent on bending all institutions, including religious institutions to conformity to the governmental group think about sexual orientation?
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Terry W Culler

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2015, 11:55:19 AM »
I raised this question as an aside before, but I think that it is important enough to be actually considered.  The LCMS has a university in Portland, Oregon.  Does this case raise concerns for our continuing to operate this university as a Lutheran university in this community that seems bent on bending all institutions, including religious institutions to conformity to the governmental group think about sexual orientation?

As I understand it, the people of the least Christian state in the nation couldn't really do anything to the school--it chose to cave.  There is enough case law and precedent to protect the LCMS school from the state of Oregon, although there might be a problem with respect to hiring homosexual janitors or cooks. 
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Charles Austin

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Re: Religious freedom and secular values are butting heads again
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2015, 01:00:30 PM »
I thought the school voluntarily changed its policies. What is wrong with that?
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