Author Topic: Planned Parenthood  (Read 34624 times)

cssml

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #135 on: August 18, 2015, 01:36:08 AM »
So the question is, why does the ELCA clearly oppose the death penalty (does it allow any 'private option' for it?), but does not oppose terminating the innocent child's life in the womb?  We are in no danger from these unborn lives.  It seems to me that the ELCA has come out clearly against the one, and clearly allows the other if the individual discerns that it is the right 'solution' to their 'problem'?


The ELCA opposes terminating the life in the womb. We are anti-abortion. At the same time, we recognize that there are some very limited circumstances where it may be a "morally responsible" choice.

I understand (but disagree with) that.  What I don't understand, is a) why the ELCA rejects the death penalty and does not allow any "limited circumstances where it may be a "morally responsible" (which I agree with), and b) why you seem to argue that the death penalty is OK, or at least you seem to be using its application as somehow equivalent to terminating innocent life in the womb  ("some lives must die at our hands, and that is OK").

The two ELCA positions are not consistent (even though I know you will find a way to argue that they are), and I am not clear if you support both of the ELCA positions.

You also argue above that the emotional state and pain of someone who has been violated justifies a choice to terminate a life that may result from the crime.  What if the pain of the mother reliving that horrible event is not fully realized until after the result of that crime has her 3rd birthday?  One of the listed moderators of this fine board would not be here if that 'choice' were made, and I thank God it was not.

All we ask of you is to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include those with no voice, the unborn.

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2015, 01:48:33 AM »

I don't believe that there is a pro-abortion cause. It certainly isn't my position of that of the ELCA. Please use better and correct terminology. We are pro-choice and anti-abortion. You don't believe such a position exists, but your belief doesn't make it not so.


Whereas your belief does make something so?

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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #137 on: August 18, 2015, 02:09:09 AM »

The ELCA opposes terminating the life in the womb. We are anti-abortion. At the same time, we recognize that there are some very limited circumstances where it may be a "morally responsible" choice.

Also at the same time, the ELCA Social Statement on Abortion is (by specific action of the ELCA Church Council acting on the recommendation of a special task force that was led by the chief writer of the Social Statement on Abortion) not to be used to influence policy or practice within the ELCA.  Therefore, in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy, the church's medical plan is required to cover the costs of an abortion without inquiring about the circumstances. 

Demonstrating exactly what we mean by being "anti-abortion."  Or is that "pro-choice?"  Or is it both?
The Rev. Steven Paul Tibbetts, STS
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David Garner

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #138 on: August 18, 2015, 10:16:29 AM »
Or, the mental and emotional health when parents know that their baby will live only a few hours after birth. To force all mothers/parents to suffer continued emotional trauma when it could be reduced seems as cruel as letting the Japanese continue to kill hundreds of Americans by sparing the 100,000's citizens in that country.

Try conservative estimates of 1 million Americans killed and woundedin a 1945-46 invasion of Japan. But, whether hundreds or one million, I'm trying to figure out the emotional benefit of having your baby killed now rather than having your baby live, albeit a few hours after birth and how the emotional trauma of the latter is as cruel as the deaths of hundreds or more of American soldiers..   :o


I cannot speak for anyone who has been in that situation, because I haven't. Have you? What makes you an expert on how a woman's emotional health after being raped or watching her infant die? What right do you have to tell her what she must do?

Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to do with regard to their own emotional health.  We all have a right to have a say in what people do with the physical health of others.  So let's please stop pretending the unborn child here is some non-factor that is irrelevant to the discussion.
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Matt Hummel

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #139 on: August 18, 2015, 10:38:19 AM »
Brian-

As we say in our household, pick a lane and drive in it.

I seem to recall you being one of those folks who were hot to trot to vitiate the Second Amendment. But now you seem to be rather more blood thirsty with regards to dealing justice judicially or extra judicially.

If I am following your line of argumentation, it would be better for a survivor of rape to track down the assailant and double tap him than for the poor assailant to be arrested, convicted, sentenced and placed in prison where he could be subject to violence.

I would also say, in reference to both Steven's and David's comments immediately proceeding mine, "What they said."

5+ years on in my insistent inquiries as to what you/the ELCA have done to live into the great Social Statement. All I know about you is your oft repeated tale of handing the statement to some family in crisis and letting them sort it out. Did it feel good, to wash your hands like Pilate, of that baby's blood?

I suspect that so many of you in the Distinction without a Difference Pro-Choice but Anti -Abortion camp are as adamant as you are is the fact that somewhere inside your minds is the realization that if you stopped for a moment, you would start to hear the silent screams of the millions of children you in your sophistry have let be slaughtered.

I really do get that. But I would point out that there is plenteous redemption for repentant sinners.
Matt Hummel


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J. Thomas Shelley

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #140 on: August 18, 2015, 10:49:07 AM »
....the silent screams of the millions of children... slaughtered....

At 2 million per year since 1973 the aborted generations (note the plural) now number 84 million, not accounting for the children (and now grandchildren) potentially descended from those aborted in the earlier years.

Those aborted in 1974 would be 41 years old, and most would have been in the workforce since 1992.

Is it any wonder that:

Social Security is in crisis with fewer workers paying in?

We "need" virtually open boarders to fill low paying jobs with illegal immigrants?

The Pentagon has needed to abandon its long standing "2 1/2 war" strategy (not enough soldiers)?

Lifelong "continuing education" requirements are in place for most professions (fewer 18 year old freshman)?


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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #141 on: August 18, 2015, 10:57:52 AM »
 Sure, we need more babies to perform menial labor,  Pay into Social Security, and serve in the army.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #142 on: August 18, 2015, 11:04:38 AM »
All we ask of you is to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include those with no voice, the unborn.


And I'm asking you to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include the life and health of the mother.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #143 on: August 18, 2015, 11:05:57 AM »

I don't believe that there is a pro-abortion cause. It certainly isn't my position of that of the ELCA. Please use better and correct terminology. We are pro-choice and anti-abortion. You don't believe such a position exists, but your belief doesn't make it not so.


Whereas your belief does make something so?


No more than your belief makes something so.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #144 on: August 18, 2015, 11:11:06 AM »
Or, the mental and emotional health when parents know that their baby will live only a few hours after birth. To force all mothers/parents to suffer continued emotional trauma when it could be reduced seems as cruel as letting the Japanese continue to kill hundreds of Americans by sparing the 100,000's citizens in that country.

Try conservative estimates of 1 million Americans killed and woundedin a 1945-46 invasion of Japan. But, whether hundreds or one million, I'm trying to figure out the emotional benefit of having your baby killed now rather than having your baby live, albeit a few hours after birth and how the emotional trauma of the latter is as cruel as the deaths of hundreds or more of American soldiers..   :o


I cannot speak for anyone who has been in that situation, because I haven't. Have you? What makes you an expert on how a woman's emotional health after being raped or watching her infant die? What right do you have to tell her what she must do?

Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to do with regard to their own emotional health.  We all have a right to have a say in what people do with the physical health of others.  So let's please stop pretending the unborn child here is some non-factor that is irrelevant to the discussion.


Until that unborn child can live separated from its mother, it is not a separate entity. As far as I know, we cannot take an unwanted blastocyst out of the mother and put it into a test tube or even another woman and have it grow into a fetus then a newborn.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steverem

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #145 on: August 18, 2015, 11:28:19 AM »
Or, the mental and emotional health when parents know that their baby will live only a few hours after birth. To force all mothers/parents to suffer continued emotional trauma when it could be reduced seems as cruel as letting the Japanese continue to kill hundreds of Americans by sparing the 100,000's citizens in that country.

Try conservative estimates of 1 million Americans killed and woundedin a 1945-46 invasion of Japan. But, whether hundreds or one million, I'm trying to figure out the emotional benefit of having your baby killed now rather than having your baby live, albeit a few hours after birth and how the emotional trauma of the latter is as cruel as the deaths of hundreds or more of American soldiers..   :o


I cannot speak for anyone who has been in that situation, because I haven't. Have you? What makes you an expert on how a woman's emotional health after being raped or watching her infant die? What right do you have to tell her what she must do?

Nobody has a right to tell anyone what to do with regard to their own emotional health.  We all have a right to have a say in what people do with the physical health of others.  So let's please stop pretending the unborn child here is some non-factor that is irrelevant to the discussion.


Until that unborn child can live separated from its mother, it is not a separate entity. As far as I know, we cannot take an unwanted blastocyst out of the mother and put it into a test tube or even another woman and have it grow into a fetus then a newborn.

So ... if we can't play God with it, it doesn't exist?

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #146 on: August 18, 2015, 11:38:59 AM »
All we ask of you is to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include those with no voice, the unborn.


And I'm asking you to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include the life and health of the mother.

Brian- We have. Hence the crisis pregnancy centers, post-abortion counseling programs, etc. To be frank, we care for more about the mothers than do you in your blood thirstiness.
Matt Hummel


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― J.R.R. Tolkien

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #147 on: August 18, 2015, 11:49:02 AM »
Sure, we need more babies to perform menial labor,  Pay into Social Security, and serve in the army.

Yes we do. Just as we need more babies to become humble correspondents (a vocation less meaningful than "menial Labor" or soldier but still has a value of some sort).


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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #148 on: August 18, 2015, 12:03:15 PM »
All we ask of you is to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include those with no voice, the unborn.


And I'm asking you to consider broadening your sense of social justice to include the life and health of the mother.


Really? you honestly people who believe differently than you don't give a rip about mothers? Really?


Truly, remarkably, incoherently, weird.


Lou

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Re: Planned Parenthood
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2015, 12:26:24 PM »
" blood thirstiness"? Talk about incoherent, weird, and remarkable.  Not to mention unfair.
There must be a way to have this discussion on terms that are not totally and completely iand rigidly defined only by those on the so-called "pro life".
But no...
Retired ELCA Pastor. Iowa native. Now in Minneapolis. One must always ponder both the value and the dangers of poking the bear. Aroused and stimulated, the bear usually shows its true self. Or it might leap to an extreme version of itself. You never know with bears.