"Lutheran Diversity" - and Other Myths

[Charles Austin]

Craig not only isn't in the ELCA, he dislikes the ELCA as much as anyone here. Notice his comments recently concerning Bishop Krister Stendahl, an ELCA pastor. Virtually everything he says is a slam at the ELCA, whether it is an insult is really a pointless discussion.
But we digress.

[Steven W Bohler]

Aaronic benediction.  More tribal language. Can we be sure, or do we sometimes erroneously assume, that people today know to what we refer when we use such terms?

I can't speak for ELCA pewsitters, but pretty much everyone in the LCMS & WELS know who Aaron was and what the Blessing means...

Mr. Johnson,

Can you please show me where in this sentence LutherMan "assumed" anything about the ELCA or its members?  What he wrote was simply that he could not speak for the ELCA (and, I gather, by extension its members).  He made no comment about their understanding, or lack of understanding.  As I said before, LutherMan is able to speak from first-hand experience about the WELS and LCMS; he is not able to do so about the ELCA.  If anything, he was being careful NOT to speak ill of the ELCA...

[Dave Benke]

Aaronic benediction.  More tribal language. Can we be sure, or do we sometimes erroneously assume, that people today know to what we refer when we use such terms?

I can't speak for ELCA pewsitters, but pretty much everyone in the LCMS & WELS know who Aaron was and what the Blessing means...

Mr. Johnson,

Can you please show me where in this sentence LutherMan "assumed" anything about the ELCA or its members?  What he wrote was simply that he could not speak for the ELCA (and, I gather, by extension its members).  He made no comment about their understanding, or lack of understanding.  As I said before, LutherMan is able to speak from first-hand experience about the WELS and LCMS; he is not able to do so about the ELCA.  If anything, he was being careful NOT to speak ill of the ELCA...

You may be right about this particular case, SW, but in the main, our LutherMan does indeed speak ill of the ELCA and those in it on about as regular a basis as can be obtained.

Dave Benke

[Donald_Kirchner]

...but in the main, our LutherMan does indeed speak ill of the ELCA and those in it on about as regular a basis as can be obtained.

And this is relevant to the issue at hand, Dave...how?

[Steven W Bohler]

Aaronic benediction.  More tribal language. Can we be sure, or do we sometimes erroneously assume, that people today know to what we refer when we use such terms?

I can't speak for ELCA pewsitters, but pretty much everyone in the LCMS & WELS know who Aaron was and what the Blessing means...

Mr. Johnson,

Can you please show me where in this sentence LutherMan "assumed" anything about the ELCA or its members?  What he wrote was simply that he could not speak for the ELCA (and, I gather, by extension its members).  He made no comment about their understanding, or lack of understanding.  As I said before, LutherMan is able to speak from first-hand experience about the WELS and LCMS; he is not able to do so about the ELCA.  If anything, he was being careful NOT to speak ill of the ELCA...

You may be right about this particular case, SW, but in the main, our LutherMan does indeed speak ill of the ELCA and those in it on about as regular a basis as can be obtained.

Dave Benke

So I take it, Dr. Benke, that you are agreeing with me that LutherMan did not say anything insulting about the ELCA in his post.  Am I correct?

[George Erdner]

Seeing others in the best POSSIBLE light is right and proper. Denying reality to see others in an IMPOSSIBLE light is not a wise course of action. And getting one's knickers in a twist over imagined insults is a major waste of time. Not that all of us don't sometimes have a little extra time to waste.

Debating over whether or not something someone said is true or at least accurate makes sense. Debating over whether or not something someone said is insulting is a damnfool stupid waste of time.

[Steven W Bohler]

Well, Mr. Erdner, the Eighth Commandment enjoins us to defend our neighbor's reputation.  I would not call that a "damnfool stupid waste of time".

[Charles Austin]

 I will say it clearly and without horns and without teeth. Craig regularly insults the ELCA and speaks ill of it here.

[Team Hesse]

I will say it clearly and without horns and without teeth. Craig regularly insults the ELCA and speaks ill of it here.

And you regularly take jabs at the LCMS. "the faults we see in others are things we do not like about ourselves." Number 10 or so for those who keep track of such things....


Lou

[Charles Austin]

 Lou, I believe the LC MS is a valid Lutheran church body in which the gospel is rightly preached in the sacraments are administered rightly.  If Craig, or anyone else here, can say that about the ELCA, I will withdraw my remark.
 I do believe, however, that there are people in the LC MS who have  some ideas that I find wrong, silly,  detrimental to evangelism and Christian fellowship, and occasionally reprehensible.

[Team Hesse]

Lou, I believe the LC MS is a valid Lutheran church body in which the gospel is rightly preached in the sacraments are administered rightly.  If Craig, or anyone else here, can say that about the ELCA, I will withdraw my remark.
 I do believe, however, that there are people in the LC MS who have  some ideas that I find wrong, silly,  detrimental to evangelism and Christian fellowship, and occasionally reprehensible.

Well, you are not the arbiter of such things, much as you wish you were. I know many fine Christians in the ELCA, and I think your founding documents are well within the Christian tradition, but I hold that the same contingencies that you apply to certain LCMS people and the problematic way they confess their faith also apply in the ELCA. And unfortunately for the ELCA, those voices are disproportionately found (in my opinion) in the leading elites of your church body. But I also do not get to decide these matters. Tweedle dee, tweedle dum, tweedle dummer.


Lou

[Donald_Kirchner]

Why do you continue to do this, Rev Austin? Just as the acronym is ELCA, so the acronym is LCMS. No space, no hyphen.

[Dave Benke]

Aaronic benediction.  More tribal language. Can we be sure, or do we sometimes erroneously assume, that people today know to what we refer when we use such terms?

I can't speak for ELCA pewsitters, but pretty much everyone in the LCMS & WELS know who Aaron was and what the Blessing means...

Mr. Johnson,

Can you please show me where in this sentence LutherMan "assumed" anything about the ELCA or its members?  What he wrote was simply that he could not speak for the ELCA (and, I gather, by extension its members).  He made no comment about their understanding, or lack of understanding.  As I said before, LutherMan is able to speak from first-hand experience about the WELS and LCMS; he is not able to do so about the ELCA.  If anything, he was being careful NOT to speak ill of the ELCA...

You may be right about this particular case, SW, but in the main, our LutherMan does indeed speak ill of the ELCA and those in it on about as regular a basis as can be obtained.

Dave Benke

So I take it, Dr. Benke, that you are agreeing with me that LutherMan did not say anything insulting about the ELCA in his post.  Am I correct?

I am agreeing with you in the specific case of the one post, while stating what I have already stated, that LutherMan is insulting toward the ELCA and those connected to it in many, many other posts on this inter-Lutheran forum.

Dave Benke

[Charles Austin]

 First, it is not an acronym. An acronym is generally a pronounceable abbreviation, like NATO.  Then, at times I am dictating my comments.  Voice recognition and computer technology is not perfect. I shall try to do better in the future.  (Sometimes, one does not know just what it is that will sizzle the nose hairs of one's readers.)

[Randy Bosch]

First, it is not an acronym. An acronym is generally a pronounceable abbreviation, like NATO.  Then, at times I am dictating my comments.  Voice recognition and computer technology is not perfect. I shall try to do better in the future.  (Sometimes, one does not know just what it is that will sizzle the nose hairs of one's readers.)

Apply Ice.