Author Topic: Action on Renewing Worship  (Read 8079 times)

Richard Johnson

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2005, 05:12:31 PM »
Well said, Mike.
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Barry Anderson

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2005, 07:38:18 PM »
I don't doubt that there are reasonable people who see the problems with RW, but those problems are so deep, and so wide, that tweaking the committee's work won't get it done.  And the agenda-driven aren't going to step aside while this gets done.

And I wonder about the market for the product; large churches, which bought many copies of the LBW, aren't likely to do so because fewer and fewer of those churches use the traditional hymnal format.  If you accept the conventional wisdom that many of the smaller churches are less than enthusiastic about these changes, it seems unlikely that AF has a market there.

So who buys it?  And why?

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Tom_Shelley

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2005, 08:20:18 PM »
Barry,

"Planned obsolescence" will by default make the ELW hymnal mandatory.  

Within the year AF will likely cease to sell LBW based products, in just the same way that in 1991 AF ceased to sell Revised Standard Version translations of the Passion (forcing us all to switch to  the "new, improved" New Revised Standard Version, if we needed to increase congregation supplies) AND in just the same way that in 1994 AF ceased to sell any LBW lectionary based materials when they (not the Church Council) foisted the "new, improved" Revised Common Lectionary on us.  Church Council authorization came much later.  

Now for the ultimate "new, improved" version....and who will buy it?---we all will, if we want the ELCA hymnal.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 08:32:33 PM by Tom_Shelley »

Coolrevgaus

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2005, 08:30:03 PM »
What if you have bought the cheapo right to publish the liturgical parts of LBW, or got the CD of it, and for music  have the new copyright license that organizations like Augsburg Fortress and Concordia have signed onto, name escapes me now. Isn't that yours to do with what you like. Many standard LBW hymns are public domain, and more and more congregations are printing or projecting their orders of service. Who needs a replacement to LBW if that is the case. I love good hymnals also but guess what copies of the Bible fit nicely into pew racks also.  

RayToy

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2005, 09:08:16 PM »
Quote
What if you have bought the cheapo right to publish the liturgical parts of LBW, or got the CD of it, and for music  have the new copyright license that organizations like Augsburg Fortress and Concordia have signed onto, name escapes me now.


That would be onelicense.net.

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Pr. Luke Zimmerman

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2005, 09:16:11 PM »
Yes, OneLicense.net.  A very useful tool for parishes.

Over in the LCMS, we have congregations, including one of mine, who still are using the 1941 Lutheran Hymnal.  There seems to be requests in our periodicals from congregations for copies of this hymnal, even though CPH still publishes it.  It appears that there is an endless supply for such churches.

We're about to embark on the LSB era---the new 2007 hymnal, as opposed to the "new" 1982 Lutheran Worship hymnal.  I am certain that there will still be churches that won't purchase this one, but still use the 1941 TLH.  Even my other congregation which adopted LW has about 60 TLH's in storage.  Whether CPH will still publish TLH after 2007 hasn't been declared publicly.

With the widespread proliferation of LBW in the ELCA, I don't see why many parishes could still obtain them from others who adopt the proposed ELW.  That's assuming that the publication of the ELW doesn't cause people to burn the so outdated, so paternalistic, so unenlightened, and so orthodox LBWs in their possession.  It's worked similarly in our synod, I'm sure it will in yours.

Or of course, you can always make Paul McCain happy and contribute to the $x million profit margin of CPH by purchasing the LSB.  ;)
Pr. Luke Zimmerman
Calvary Evangelical Lutheran Church -- Mechanicsburg, PA

Richard Johnson

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2005, 04:00:36 AM »
Quote
Yes, OneLicense.net.  A very useful tool for parishes.

 
A very useful tool, but note that it does NOT cover LBW  liturgical music, only hymns. You have to buy a separate license for the liturgical music. I would except that whatever liturgical music AF offers would continue to cover the LBW, however. Also, in fairness, AF is not unreasonable about these things. I sometimes want to use the Psalm antiphons that were published back in the 1970's or early 1980's (the ones that were included in Jubilate and similar resources for many years); license doesn't cover them, but AF gave us free permission to use them (though for one year at a time).
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2005, 10:11:52 AM »
A while back I bought the license for the LBW liturgies, and I believe it is a lifetime license for ~$20.00.

As the music is mostly the same as what was placed in the LCMS' LW, I have the Divine Service Settings in my computer and cut and paste them into our bulletins for each Sunday.  The Occasional Services, Eucharistic Prayers and lots of other stuff is on the CD, if I remember correctly.

We also subscribe to onelicense, which has Troubadour for the Lord, John Michael Talbot's music on it for use, FYI.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2005, 08:16:17 PM »
Quote
A while back I bought the license for the LBW liturgies, and I believe it is a lifetime license for ~$20.00.

We did that, too. The license also includes the liturgies of SBH, should anyone want to use them.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2005, 03:34:00 PM »
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As an alternative to RW, there is a new privately published, pan-Lutheran Hymnal out there which is really not bad at all.  It is, "The Service Hymnal - - A Lutheran Homecoming.

We ought not forget that AugsburgFortress continues to sell the pew edition of the Service Book and Hymnal.  I suspect that the LBW will be available for quite some time.

spt+
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 03:37:27 PM by przip »
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Norsk

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2005, 04:58:57 PM »
Good to hear, Pr. Tibbetts.  For those of us "Red Book Dinosaurs" tuned in here, could anyone hazard a guess as to how many ELCA parishes still use the SBH?  I've heard the corresponding number in LCMS (stilll using TLH) is 1/3.  Presumably it is much smaller in ELCA.  Any guesses?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 05:00:00 PM by Norsk »

Mike in Maryland

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2005, 06:29:43 AM »
For what it's worth, a couple of years ago I heard that approximately 4% of ELCA congregations use the SBH (and a very tiny number the Common Service Book).

Revbert

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2005, 08:45:42 AM »
Anyone have an altar edition of the SBH collecting dust?  That is the only piece I'm missing from a complete one-of set.

Will pay postage, even  ;D

Thanks!

Art

djbaer

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 11:19:06 AM »
I want to echo Michael's encouragement to work with the Renewing Worship staff to ensure that the final product is the best that it can be.   Any book will not be all that we'd desire but we should help it to be the best that it can be.

I have written several e-mails to the Renewing Worship staff.  They have been very gracious in receiving input.  It sounds like they are in the final stages of review and are interested in input over the next few weeks.  

You may not want to purchase the new book right away, but someday you may be worshiping in or leading a church that has it.  Let us all pray that "Evangelical Lutheran Worship" is the best book that it can possibly be.  

And don't just pray.  Write them an e-mail or call.  Do what you can to offer gracious help as they finalize the contents of the liturgies and hymns.


Samuel_Zumwalt

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Re: Action on Renewing Worship
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2005, 06:12:46 AM »
Because we are a divided church in theology and practice, it is inevitable that Renewing Worship resources will reflect a "big tent" approach to worship regardless of how many e-mails you send.  Remember what all the resources look like already and recognize the prejudices and assumptions of the resource people.

You will see, as is present in the downloadable resources, orthodox language for God side by side with revisionist language for God.  That is supposed to please everyone.  If you are revisionist, you use column B.  If you are orthodox, you use column A.

This is similar to the solution offered in LBW for those that wanted every Sunday communion to be presumed and those that did not.  Both options were available in the final form of settings 1, 2, and 3.

The goal is to make the book palatable to the broadest audience.

However, if you believe that Scriptural language for God is revelatory and not metaphoric, then you cannot be satisfied with making orthodoxy optional.

A few old hymns will be kept or brought back from previous books as a sop to pious elders, but that won't change the fact that the book's hymns will be in rewritten form to reflect revisionist God language and avoid all that "terrible" military and patriarchal imagery that embarrassingly keeps popping up in Scripture.

The solution is obvious for those that can't buy that  orthodoxy is optional.  Keep LBW and buy licenses for additional hymns and service music -- especially if you print the liturgy in the weekend bulletins.

Other books will come along that won't compromise orthodox worship by providing options for the widest possible audience of (what?) consumers of AF products.  

I'll wait.