Author Topic: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?  (Read 12033 times)

Dave Likeness

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2014, 11:20:45 PM »
On Sept. 11, 2001 there were 3,000 people killed by
terrorists in New York, Washington, D.C. and Pennsylvania.
This was an act of war on American soil.  The C.I.A. used
torture methods to gain valuable information to prevent
 more attacks.  We should not be naÔve about the necessity
to protect Americans from future attacks by extreme terrorists.
War is not a Sunday School picnic.

LutherMan

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2014, 11:35:21 PM »
Some might think that the torture report is a time for national repentance.  I wonder what the good readers of this  distinguished Forum might have to say about this.

This is very relevant to some of our earlier discussion of repentance and forgiveness. 

1.  Does repentance mean ceasing the sinful behavior?  Do we need to make sure that the current administration isn't continuing those past practices before we ask for forgiveness?

2.  If we are sorry for past torture, must a pastor insist that we intend to change our behavior in the future before forgiveness is proclaimed? 

Those questions are theoretical and practical.  It has been argued before on this forum that sorrow for past sin suffices and to ask for a change of behavior constitutes legalism.  On a practical level, I want to make sure that we are going to repent of the sins of both the Bush and Obama administrations, and not just those of one of them.

No, this report is not indicative of a time for national repentance.  The report is an obvious final slam on the Bush (Boosh, Boosh, Boosh) Administration to take our eye off of all the imperial decrees of the current administration.   

Yes.  Why not repent for the drone assassinations carried out on American citizens by the Obama Administration?  Why not repent for Obama's failure to close Guantanamo?   Why not question the methods used to locate Osama bin Laden after Bush left office?  Why not repent for Obama's expansion of government spying on citizens?
Thank you for your fair-minded approach to this issue Pr. Charlton...

Terry W Culler

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2014, 07:32:45 AM »
The problem with using extraordinary means to accomplish something is they soon cease to be extraordinary.  The old saying (maybe from Franklin?) that someone who prefers safety to freedom will soon find that he has neither, is spot on. 

War is dreadful and it involves people doing dreadful things.  That is why it should be hated so much.  And I was in one, so I know something about whereof I speak.  I don't see how the "war" we are in today is accomplishing much of anything.  Maybe that's from ignorance, but I don't think so.  We were attacked.  We struck back.  Okay.  But now it just seems to go on and on and no one can even tell us when we will have won.  It is a little like living in "1984"
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Norman Teigen

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2014, 07:46:08 AM »
http://religiondispatches.org/torture-denial-u-s-flunks-the-religious-acid-test/   In this piece writer Laarman argues that the United States flunks the religious acid test.
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Eileen Smith

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2014, 08:23:26 AM »
On Sept. 11, 2001 there were 3,000 people killed by
terrorists in New York, Washington, D.C. and Pennsylvania.
This was an act of war on American soil.  The C.I.A. used
torture methods to gain valuable information to prevent
 more attacks.  We should not be naÔve about the necessity
to protect Americans from future attacks by extreme terrorists.
War is not a Sunday School picnic.

I agree with this as harsh as it may seem.  The 'war' wasn't a one-time event of our being attacked on 9/11 and a response.  There have been attacks since Obama came into office and many thwarted attacks - some that we hear of many that we don't.  It is an assault on our ears to hear reports such as the one that was released (and apparently has many flaws).   War, indeed, is not a Sunday School picnic.

Repentance is always good and necessary.  Perhaps a good place for us to start as a nation is allowing abortion to exist in our country.

John_Hannah

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2014, 08:35:11 AM »
It's simple politics; that's all. The Democratic response to the mid-term Republican victories. It may actually help the Republicans just as the shutdown has helped Democrats.

I think the Christian response is to pray that our elected representatives would resume governing.

Peace, JOHN
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2014, 09:03:54 AM »
Repentance is always good and necessary.  Perhaps a good place for us to start as a nation is allowing abortion to exist in our country.

I trust that you mean that the nation should repent for allowing abortion to exist in our country?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 09:10:37 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Charles Austin

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2014, 09:40:48 AM »
Dave Likeness writes:
The C.I.A. used torture methods to gain valuable information to prevent more attacks. 

I comment:
Actually, we are now learning that the torture did not gain much information and that some of the information it did gain was wrong.
   And since the "abortion" card now equals the "Nazi" card in whip-whap rhetoric, and was almost instantly plopped down on the green baize table as if it would beat a royal flush, I observe that it is not a "nation" or an agency of the federal government that is directing, sponsoring or forcing people to have abortions; while it was the policy of a federal agency to use torture on people in federal custody.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

Randy Bosch

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2014, 09:48:51 AM »
Since the federal government, through legislation and court adjudication, has found abortion virtually on demand to be a "right" and legal, and then actively funded it through "healthcare" programs, it is sponsoring it, and it is a policy of the federal government and therefore of the nation.  Fortunately, the nation has stopped short of directing or forcing people to have abortions, so far, as far as we know...

...I observe that it is not a "nation" or an agency of the federal government that is directing, sponsoring or forcing people to have abortions; ...
Quote


Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2014, 09:54:07 AM »
Actually, we are now learning that the torture did not gain much information and that some of the information it did gain was wrong.

Which is absolutely disputed by those who were there and in the know. But I suppose those who gained the benefit of the safety rendered by CIA actions can sit around and quibble about the word "much."

An interesting exchange between Eric Bolling and Bob Beckel.  Eric asked Bob which was preferable, killing by drone or water boarding. Beckel's response, "We don't torture." Bolling: "So better to kill by drone than water board?" Beckel: "Yes."  Good grief, we water board our own people in training. As Dennis Miller stated, to ISIS (paraphrased), "ISIS, if you're listening, if the worst you promise to do to those you capture is water board them, you have a deal."
Don Kirchner

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DCharlton

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2014, 10:33:16 AM »
   And since the "abortion" card now equals the "Nazi" card in whip-whap rhetoric, and was almost instantly plopped down on the green baize table as if it would beat a royal flush, I observe that it is not a "nation" or an agency of the federal government that is directing, sponsoring or forcing people to have abortions; while it was the policy of a federal agency to use torture on people in federal custody.

The better option is to oppose torture and abortion. 

The problem with calling for national repentance is that we usually end up repenting for other people's sins.  There are so many sins that have been committed by Americans that if we repent of only one group of sins, by implication we justify all the other sins.  Repentance then becomes a political football.  If the Republicans win, they will have America repent of the sins of Democrats.  If the Democrats win, they will have us repent of the sins of Republicans. 

The hard part is naming and repenting of my own sins. 
David Charlton  

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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2014, 10:48:38 AM »
Getting back to my question.  David said that war (or I add interrogation in extreme) is not a Sunday School picnic.   My question is whether Sunday School teacher-types can participate in these extreme measures?    Or do we have to get unbelievers to do them for us.... and of course, is that OK also.   Harvey Mozolak
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Charles Austin

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2014, 10:49:41 AM »
Pastor Kirchner writes (re the report saying that torture did not gain any "valuable" information)
Which is absolutely disputed by those who were there and in the know. But I suppose those who gained the benefit of the safety rendered by CIA actions can sit around and quibble about the word "much."

I comment:
Well! Duh! What would you expect them to say? But other analysts - also CIA-related - are those saying no valuable information was gained. And I suppose we could "gain" the "benefits of the safety rendered by CIA actions" if we simple went around the world with our weapons and slaughtered everyone who we think opposes us. That's just "torture" writ large. Do you favor that?
I believe Senator John McCain, who knows something about torture, is among those decrying what we have done in the name of our "safety" and worrying that we may be "protecting" a flawed version of "safety" by terrible actions.
Retired ELCA Pastor. Parishes in Iowa, Nw York and New Jersey. LCA and LWF staff. Former journalist. Now retired, living in Minneapolis. Preaching and presiding for Episcopalians next Sunday.

Donald_Kirchner

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2014, 10:55:29 AM »
Pastor Kirchner writes (re the report saying that torture did not gain any "valuable" information)
Which is absolutely disputed by those who were there and in the know. But I suppose those who gained the benefit of the safety rendered by CIA actions can sit around and quibble about the word "much."

I comment:
Well! Duh! What would you expect them to say? But other analysts - also CIA-related - are those saying no valuable information was gained.

Are you incapable of having a civil discussion without the "Duh!" and other cheap shots?  To repeat, I suppose those who gained the benefit of the safety rendered by CIA actions can sit around and quibble about the word "much" which you now want to do.

And I suppose we could "gain" the "benefits of the safety rendered by CIA actions" if we simple went around the world with our weapons and slaughtered everyone who we think opposes us. That's just "torture" writ large.

That would be the method supported by the Obama administration et al, i.e., drone killing.

I believe Senator John McCain, who knows something about torture, is among those decrying what we have done in the name of our "safety" and worrying that we may be "protecting" a flawed version of "safety" by terrible actions.

Reasonable minds, including those who have been water boarded in military training, disagree. They think they're better off still being alive.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 11:02:08 AM by Pr. Don Kirchner »
Don Kirchner

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Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Is the torture report indicative that it is time for national repentance?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2014, 11:04:11 AM »
while I would not want to be a part of a comparison test....

waterboarding in military training
vs
what Sen McCain went thru

let's see which do you think was more authentic?

did any of the folks in the training loose the use of their...   ah, forget that...


Harvey Mozolak
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