Author Topic: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events  (Read 6088 times)

Rev. Matthew Uttenreither

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2014, 01:50:35 PM »
Pr. Engebretson, Pr. Austin's theology of prayer is off because of his theology of baptism.  Only a baptized child of God can call on God in prayer on the basis of:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Without Jesus, one cannot call on God the Father

Galatians 3:26-27- for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Baptism is the means by which one becomes a child of God (and a brother/sister of Jesus).  Without baptism, we do not have access to the Throne of Grace as baptism is the means by which we become priests (the priesthood of the baptized.)

Pilgrim

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2014, 01:54:58 PM »
Tim merely notes: It never ceases to amaze me how convinced some folks seem to be of knowing "exactly" what God does or does not hear, do, etc. From where I sit, that seems an absolutely arrogant and frightening shattering of the 1st commandment, the creature assuming creator status.
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Rev. Matthew Uttenreither

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2014, 02:53:19 PM »
Some folks can be certain because some folks believe that God's Word (that which has been revealed) is certain.

Dan Fienen

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2014, 03:10:34 PM »
Does God hear the prayer of Jews or of nonChristians?  That should probably be handled as two distinct questions.

In general, because He is omniscient if for no other reason, God hears every prayer, every thought, every utterance no matter to whom it is directed.  How could He not?  God also loves everyone, sinner, saint, believer in Him through Jesus or nonbeliever in Jesus.  "For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.  Matthew 5:45b (ESV)

What is lacking for the prayer of nonChristians is the assurance that God is pleased with their prayer and the promise that God will answer the prayer with blessings as He decides is best.  Nor does their prayer necessarily foster their relationship with God.

When the question of the prayers of contemporary Jews is considered the whole question of the relationship of Jesus to the Old Testament covenant is raised.  One option that I have heard suggested is that Jesus came as the savior for the Gentiles, the Jews continue to be under and saved by the Old Testament covenant.  How one squares that position with what Paul said on the topic, much less Jesus Himself I have no idea.

Dan
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Mike Bennett

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2014, 03:34:13 PM »
It's interesting how a straightforward, focused discussion question can be derailed by a practiced provocateur. And it reminds me why I only look in a couple of times a year now.
“What peace can there be, so long as the many whoredoms and sorceries of your mother Jezebel continue?”  2 Kings 9:22

Charles Austin

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2014, 03:40:21 PM »
Pastor Uttenreither says Jews can not call on God in prayer. Everyone here down with that?
Pastor Fienen -always "on the one hand, on the other hand" - isn't sure whether Jews can have a relationship with God, but has "heard" that some dare to wonder whether the "old" covenant might still be valid, even though Paul seems to say it's not.
Others? Do Jews have access to God or not?
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Pilgrim

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2014, 04:04:17 PM »
Some folks can be certain because some folks believe that God's Word (that which has been revealed) is certain.

Tim notes: I search in vain for a direct revealed word declaring what prayers God does and does not hear.

Matt, I am not seeking to undermine God's revelation in Sacred Text. But I would simply point out passages like Isaiah 55:8, John 10:16;which remind me at least, that God's ways are ultimately unfathomable and far beyond even what He has revealed to us in Sacred text. Thus, would it not better serve all of us to humbly pray that He would deepen our faith (i.e., believe His Word to us and bear witness to His loving intention for all of humanity at all times and in all places) rather than declare our seeming cocksuredness about what God does or does not do, as such "ultimate" statements from our side of eternity are always penultimate at best? 
Pr. Tim Christ, STS

Dan Fienen

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2014, 04:16:01 PM »
Pastor Uttenreither says Jews can not call on God in prayer. Everyone here down with that?
Pastor Fienen -always "on the one hand, on the other hand" - isn't sure whether Jews can have a relationship with God, but has "heard" that some dare to wonder whether the "old" covenant might still be valid, even though Paul seems to say it's not.
Others? Do Jews have access to God or not?

What is your opinion, Charles?  What do you say?  Do the Jews have no need for Jesus since He came to save the Gentiles and not the Jews who have the Old Testament covenant and promise of a savior?  Since many Jews in Jesus day did not accept Him as God's promised savior is God now obliged to eventually send a new savior more to their liking?

As to Jews having access to God through prayer, they have the same access that everyone does.  They also remain God's covenant although estranged people.
Pr. Daniel Fienen
LCMS

Charles Austin

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2014, 04:34:12 PM »
You dart off in too many over-heated directions, Pastor Fienen.
I believe that everyone needs Jesus.
I don't think God is going to send another Savior, but I don't claim to know everything God can do or is going to do.
As for the Jews being "estranged" from God, aren't we all?
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

D. Engebretson

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2014, 05:11:04 PM »
As for the Jews being "estranged" from God, aren't we all?

According to Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:18 God has reconciled us to himself through Christ.  If one who embraces the Jewish faith rejects this action of God (that is, they do not believe that God has reconciled us through Jesus' salvific work), they do not nulify God's desire for reconciliation, but they nevertheless leave themselves 'estranged' from God by their own choice.  Having rejected God's own gift, how would their prayers therefore be legitimate petitions for God's grace?
Pastor Don Engebretson
St. Peter Lutheran Church of Polar (Antigo) WI

Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2014, 05:16:59 PM »
I don't know of any controversy about "prayer fellowship" until the Brux case. In the 1880's predestination, chiliasm, and "open questions" were all the rage.

Many, if not most, Sunday congregational prayers in non-Lutheran but Christian churches do not involve false teaching. Obviously praying the Our Father with a Presbyterian would not, even
if "trespasses" is turned into "debts." I should think that Fuerbringer was theologically astute enough to identify false teaching and not even whisper an "Amen" to any false teaching. Don't you?

Peace, JOHN

Thanks for your comment and question, John. I'm sure Fuerbringer was theologically astute about his visits to the Presbyterian church.

I recently spent time visiting services for many different churches due to a project. Our family visited the following: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox, Baptist, Coptic Orthodox, Episcopalian, other Lutherans, a megachurch, Methodists, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic churches. The weirdest experience was at the megachurch. There were prayers at the Armenian, Coptic, and Roman Catholic churches to which we could not say "Amen" because they were invoking the saints, which I believe is contrary to Holy Scripture. We did not say "Amen" to the Presbyterian prayer before the Sacrament because it was steeped in Calvin's doctrine of the Supper. When the Pentecostals started speaking in tongues there was nothing to do but watch (and assure the kids it was going to be okay). So I did find that there were places and times when I did not think I could say Amen.

It was a great learning experience for each of us. A happy result is that the kids very much appreciate the Lutheran church while having greater understanding of other Christians. They seem intent upon dating and marrying Lutherans after seeing what else is out there. Susan and I are happy about that. We'll see what God has in mind for them.

In Christ,
EE
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 05:21:56 PM by Rev. Edward Engelbrecht »
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Rev. Edward Engelbrecht

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2014, 05:23:55 PM »
It's interesting how a straightforward, focused discussion question can be derailed by a practiced provocateur. And it reminds me why I only look in a couple of times a year now.

I think this is a good point and wonder whether the moderators would like to create a separate thread about whether God hears the prayers of the Jews. It is a worthy topic of discussion but not really at home on this thread.

In Christ,
EE
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Charles Austin

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2014, 05:25:15 PM »
Then add Pastor Engebretson to the list of those who say that the prayers of Jews are not valid. Anyone else?
By the way, threads of discussion change direction all the time. Sometimes the subject of the original thread simply fades away.
Retired ELCA pastor. Iowa born. Now in Minnesota. Twice-vaccinated.

LutherMan

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2014, 06:33:42 PM »

By the way, threads of discussion change direction all the time. Sometimes the subject of the original thread simply fades away.
Or, you actively work to create thread drift...

Harvey_Mozolak

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Re: Non-Lutheran Speakers at LCMS Events
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2014, 06:36:20 PM »
or there is the thread drift caused by thread drift protestations, eh?   Harvey Mozolak
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