The US Flag

[Robert_C_Baker]

We always explained that in our committal, we throw DIRT on the casket, so if they wanted me to throw dirt on the flag, they could do their rite AFTER the committal, or they could go first at the graveside and give the church the final word. Works every single time.

I'm surprised at such a statement from you, William.

In my experience, military cemeteries are respectful of Christian clergy, and those who assist at committals, themselves usually veterans, are very grateful for clergy participation.

And the Church always has the last word... when clergy insist.

[Harvey_Mozolak]

but Robert, you are not dealing with Colonels and Majors and military protocol experts but local VFW Generals...  who want and demand the last word and if they don't get it, you will hear and not merely from them but from the family who you supposedly insulted.   Harvey Mozolak

[J. Thomas Shelley]

but Robert, you are not dealing with Colonels and Majors and military protocol experts but local VFW Generals...  who want and demand the last word and if they don't get it, you will hear and not merely from them but from the family who you supposedly insulted.   Harvey Mozolak

Our local Veterans Honor Guard is kept so busy burying the last of the "greatest generation" and now, the Korean veterans, that they often have as many as six or seven committals every day, with most occuring between 10:30 AM and 3:30 PM.

As a result they actually plead to go first so that they can move on to the next one, which may be many miles away. 

I ask if I can read the opening verses and the blessing of the grave prayer first.  Then the military rites (and Honor Guard falls out); then the Gospel and final prayers and blessing.

[Daniel L. Gard]

Why does the Navy get a separate day apart from Armed Services Day?

Because we are the Navy and they are not. Simple!

[Daniel L. Gard]

I do not understand how it is possible to display the U.S. flag in the sanctuary of a Christian church and also comply with flag etiquette.  When displayed, the flag is supposed to be accorded the place of honor.  In the sanctuary, the cross belongs in the place of honor.

On board ships of the United States Navy, only one flag is always flown above the national ensign: the Church pennant. Historically, the Cross is given priority over the symbol of our nation.

[John Mundinger]

I do not understand how it is possible to display the U.S. flag in the sanctuary of a Christian church and also comply with flag etiquette.  When displayed, the flag is supposed to be accorded the place of honor.  In the sanctuary, the cross belongs in the place of honor.

On board ships of the United States Navy, only one flag is always flown above the national ensign: the Church pennant. Historically, the Cross is given priority over the symbol of our nation.

On the ship's mast, or just in the chapel?

[Eileen Smith]

I have often wondered what pastors actually think of laity.  One pastor said to me that we are dumb sheep and he is there to lead us.  Is that really the prevailing thought!  Do clergy really think that the order of 'speakers' determines who has the last word in our minds!  My dad had military honors and, yes, it was the last action at the cemetery.  To us, it was simply a piece that came after the committal.  It really was apart from the prayers we offered and it certainly wasn't the last word.  Again, give us some credit - we do understand that God has the last word and far more important than who speaks last at a funeral would be the days that follow when that flag is placed in a pretty box and it is God's last word that gets us through those difficult days.  And.... give God some credit too.  It is He - not one vested in a collar - who has the last word.

[Donald_Kirchner]

Well said. It is quite inappropriate to get in a dispute with a veteran's association at the graveside or beforehand, especially with sarcastic quips such as how one would like it if we threw sand/dirt on the US flag. For often the grieving family ends up in the middle of things.

That said, it's a bit different at the church. When our congregation's president, a beloved member of the community, died a large contingent of the veteran's honor guard was there with flags that they placed in front of the communion rail at the last moment before the service. They were all standing in front as the processional began, blocking my entrance to the chancel. As I got to the front I whispered, "Come on, guys, I've got to get through!" They grudgingly moved.

As I stepped into the pulpit, a POW flag completely blocked my line of sight to Shirley and her son. I simply went down and moved the flag and continued.

At the committal I spoke the order, the vets association did their thing, ending with the volley and presenting the flag to Shirley, and after their completion I proclaimed, "Christ is risen! He is risen indeed! Alleluia!" with family and members joining in with the familiar response. It seems logical that the committal service is a continuation of the funeral service at the church. Why would you have the military honors interrupt the flow by sandwiching it between the two for the sake of having the "last word"? As Ms. Smith rightly states, "God always has the last word," and our proclamation of the Gospel and our continuing ministry to the grieving family is what lasts.

BTW, after the service and traditional lunch, I met with the funeral director and discussed the military set up at the church, letting him know "I'm as patriotic as most, but never aagain will that take place" so that he could handle it next time. No sarcastic words or quibbling with the honor guard who, for the most part, meant well and were acting out of ignorance. And the family wasn't placed in the middle, having to hear complaints from anyone.

[Dan Fienen]

From the amount of hostility being shown here toward the US flag and military honors at funerals (is it really to God's honor to offer to throw dirt on the US flag? must we be sure to put the veterans who usually do the honors in their {not honored} place?) I wonder if it is perhaps not only theological issues at work but perhaps expressions of pastors' own disappointment/dislike of the United States at work.  I remember a letter to the editor of our local paper back after 9/11/01 expressing dismay and offense at the number of US flags being flown at local business and threatening to boycott any business that was flying a flag.  Is it really wrong/distasteful/gauche to be patriotic or to display our nation's flag?  Can one be patriotic without being jingoistic?  Can one be patriotic while still recognizing and acknowledging America's flaws?   

Christians have divided loyalties, we are always citizens of two kingdoms the divine and the secular.  Read the Old Testament prophets, their writings and the historical OT books, and even there in what was supposed to be a theocracy there was conflict between church and state.  But loyalty to God does not automatically mean disdain for the nation of which we are a part.  Our nation also deserves a measure of loyalty and respect if only because it also is a gift from God and established by God.  The two kingdom doctrine does not mean that we have loyalty for one (God's kingdom) and therefor only grudging obedience as necessary and dislike and disdain for the other.  In Lutheran Day School and confirmation class I was taught that the Fourth Commandment covers not only our relationship to our parents and pastor but also our country and those in authority in the state.

Our people likely have mixed feelings about the United States like we do.  They will complain about this president or that one, think that Congress is populated by idiots, laugh at the late night hosts' political jokes, but also largely regard their nation as home and family.  Loyalty to nation and patriotism does not necessarily take away from their loyalty to God, especially if we do not urge them to choose between them unnecessarily.  Their can be times when obedience to God means disobedience to the state - but are we really often in that position here in the US?  Do we really want to tell our people who have served their nation in the military that their service was dishonorable and foolish  - best forgotten as distasteful?  Rarely are we Americans called upon to risk death for our faith but many of our people have risked death (at least theoretically and often actually) in military service.

Patriotism can be carried too far.  Our nation is not perfect and we ignore its flaws only at great peril, but it is our nation and we are its people.  And while there is much to be repented of in American history and even current activity, there has also been much good and even good intentions that do not always work out as good.  It is as wrong to avoid acknowledging the good about the USA as it is wrong to avoid acknowledging the bad.  We do our people a disservice if we try to make the church a USA free zone, just as those who would make the public square a religion free zone are wrong.  Our nation is an important part of our people's lives, to ignore that part of their lives would be foolish as though they have to cease to be Christian when they are being American.

Dan

[Daniel L. Gard]

I do not understand how it is possible to display the U.S. flag in the sanctuary of a Christian church and also comply with flag etiquette.  When displayed, the flag is supposed to be accorded the place of honor.  In the sanctuary, the cross belongs in the place of honor.

On board ships of the United States Navy, only one flag is always flown above the national ensign: the Church pennant. Historically, the Cross is given priority over the symbol of our nation.

On the ship's mast, or just in the chapel?

On the mast whenever a Divine Service is being conducted on board.

[peter_speckhard]

As one who served in the Army and who is very patriotic I can say in my own case that it is not any animus or disappointment with America that causes me to insist on doing the Easter proclamation after the military honors. And there is no dispute. I've never gotten into an argument about it. The military folks always ask me to give them some sort of signal or nod when they should do their thing and I do so, and after they're done I continue. There is no disdain of anyone or anything. There is simply an order of importance.

And it isn't that people are too stupid to get it if things go out of order. But it is symbolically important nonetheless. One could argue that having screens front and center and a cross off to the side in the chancel makes no difference. After all, people aren't stupid. But it matters to people, not because they think God won't listen to their prayers if the cross is not literally and physically in the center, but because they naturally want the symbols in the sanctuary to reflect properly on our priorities.

[Daniel L. Gard]

If I might suggest something it would be this. If there are to be military honors at a funeral over which you preside, talk to the honoring unit prior to the service. A few observations:

1. Military honor guards will always cooperate with the officiating clergy.
2. Veterans' organizations (American Legion, VFW, etc) are typically cooperative but are not governed by the same regulations as uniformed honor guards. It is important to speak to them before the service and explain what can and cannot be done at a Church funeral.
3. The officiating clergy is in charge of the funeral at the Church and the graveside. For example, if the congregation uses a funeral pall in the sanctuary, that is what will cover the casket. The American flag can be draped over the casket after the recessional and before the casket is placed in the hearse.
4. At the graveside, the typical military honors include the folding/presentation of the flag and the playing of taps with a 21 gun salute. When this takes place is up to the officiating clergy. My own practice is to instruct the honor guard that I will indicate to them when they are to perform the honors. My practice is to have these honors rendered near the end of the graveside service. After the final honors, I give the benediction. God has the last word. "Christ is risen!"
5. The honors rendered do not include speeches, eulogies or any speaking role other than the quiet words to the immediate family as the folded flag is presented to them ("On behalf of a grateful nation....."). Military honor guards know this - the local veterans' group may or may not and need to be instructed.

Remember that this is a Christian service and not a secular ceremony. Preach the Gospel. Proclaim Christ. You can do this and still allow an expression of gratitude from a nation served by the individual.

[peterm]

Within a few days of coming to my current Call, members of the congregation who are also veterans approached me to talk about Military honors at the funeral etc.  My own take is that veterans ought to be recognized for their service if they wish.  For many this was a defining period in their liver.  I would hope that when the time comes to do such services in my congregations we could talk about what is appropriate with all involved.

[Donald_Kirchner]

For many this was a defining period in their liver.

Auto-spell can be quite humorous at times. 

[Dan Fienen]

Not everyone on this thread has expressed such disdain and disrespect for the USA or the flag or offered to toss dirt on the flag.  There is certainly nothing wrong and everything right with a pastor being in charge of a funeral and committal and so coordinating with the honor guard their timing and placement.

As with all rants in these threads,  if the shoe fits, put it on.  If it doesn't,  put it down and move on -others will be along to wear it.