Author Topic: Unchurched Versus Dechurched  (Read 8799 times)

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44471
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2014, 12:08:49 PM »
I think I've answered this question, but here goes again.  A person who is baptized and yet rejects God was never saved in the first place.  Baptism is only efficacious for the elect.


I'm more inclined to think that baptism is a sign that we are among the elect. The Jews are God's Chosen people because God said so - and remained so even though the rejected God over and over again throughout their history. They remained God's people, even when God was disciplining them for their misbehaviors and idolatry.


What do you say of Peter who rejected Jesus? Or the other ten who abandoned him? They did not cease being "The Twelve". Only death ended Jesus choice/election of these apostles.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:10:46 PM by Brian Stoffregen »
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

peterm

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 878
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2014, 12:43:32 PM »
I think I've answered this question, but here goes again.  A person who is baptized and yet rejects God was never saved in the first place.  Baptism is only efficacious for the elect.

This gives me the heebie geebies because it makes Baptism something other than a Sacrament and means of Grace, placing the onus on the person baptized.  It would seem to me that Luther argues that what makes the Sacraments efficacious is the Word of Promise contained therein, not the belief of the receiver or the presider.  if the Sacrament is not an effective means of Grace for salvation regardless of the strength of my belief at any given moment than it is moot.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

peter_speckhard

  • ALPB Administrator
  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 19396
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2014, 01:11:37 PM »
Pr. Culler, we do indeed disagree at a fairly foundational level about the nature of a lot of things.

Terry W Culler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2371
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2014, 02:41:56 PM »
If baptism is the sign that we are among the elect, it is also a sign that we are among the non-elect since many who are baptized live God-less lives devoid of any interaction with the Savior at all, much less a confession of Christ's Lordship and faith in the Resurrection.  Baptism is much more than that. 

Baptism is regenerative for those chosen by God, and only for them.  It is not for those who, however it works, are not among the elect.  It has nothing to do with a decision to be saved.  It has nothing to do with an already inner spiritual renewal.  It has nothing to do with any kind of merit on the part of the batized person.  It is solely God's work in the life of the one whom He in His sovereign grace has chosen for Himself.  It is most assuredly a Sacrament.
Trying to be retired but failing

peterm

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 878
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2014, 03:06:50 PM »
Luther would argue that Baptism itself creates election so there are no "Non elect" who are baptized.  Are there those who don't fully live into their baptism?  Certainly, at any given moment I might be among them depending on the day, but that does not negate the baptism itself.
Rev. Peter Morlock- ELCA pastor serving two congregations in WIS

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44471
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2014, 01:01:29 AM »
If baptism is the sign that we are among the elect, it is also a sign that we are among the non-elect since many who are baptized live God-less lives devoid of any interaction with the Savior at all, much less a confession of Christ's Lordship and faith in the Resurrection.  Baptism is much more than that.


You are making one's life the sign of election rather than God's Word given in baptism.

Quote
Baptism is regenerative for those chosen by God, and only for them.  It is not for those who, however it works, are not among the elect.  It has nothing to do with a decision to be saved.  It has nothing to do with an already inner spiritual renewal.  It has nothing to do with any kind of merit on the part of the batized person.  It is solely God's work in the life of the one whom He in His sovereign grace has chosen for Himself.  It is most assuredly a Sacrament.


Baptism is equivalent to birth. The baptized are born from above. When my wife gave birth to our children, they were are children. As they grew and sometimes acted poorly and against our wills, they were still our children. Their actions, whether good or bad, do not determine whether or not they are our children.


A Jewish comment I heard and liked stated that the 613 laws biding on the Jews cannot be works-righteousness, because they are already God's covenant people. Obeying those laws is their witness to the rest of the world that they are God's people. Some Jews do very well at making such a witness in the world, others do very poorly. That doesn't change the fact that they are God's covenant people.


The baptized are God's children whether they act like it or not.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

Terry W Culler

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 2371
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2014, 09:25:44 AM »
To say baptism creates the elect is sort of true for those predestined to salvation, although I would argue it is God's acting upon them in fulfillment of His predetermination.  I don't see where it says anyone else is so saved.  Divine election is taught throughout Scripture, which cannot be broken.  Just a few places to refresh our memories: Jeremiah 1:5, Ro. 8:29-30, Eph. 1:4-5, John 17:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10. 

Baptism is a new birth but it can't be compared to human birth for I did not choose my children before they were born.

As to the works righteousness or not of Jewish religious practice, Brian is espousing part of the so-called new perspective on Paul, which would essentially destroy the rationale for the Reformation and drive all of us back to Rome, indulgences and all.
Trying to be retired but failing

Brian Stoffregen

  • ALPB Contribution Leader
  • *****
  • Posts: 44471
  • ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν, ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν
    • View Profile
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2014, 09:32:21 PM »

Baptism is a new birth but it can't be compared to human birth for I did not choose my children before they were born.


Then your children's births were much different than ours. We wanted those children in our family years before they were even conceived. We had made our choice for them long before their births. They even had names before they were born. They were not given a choice about their names, nor the family that they would be raised in.

Quote
As to the works righteousness or not of Jewish religious practice, Brian is espousing part of the so-called new perspective on Paul, which would essentially destroy the rationale for the Reformation and drive all of us back to Rome, indulgences and all.


It's also a perspective that looks at Judaism not through the lens of Luther and Paul. It is a perspective that the Jews have about their own faith, rather than one that we think that they should have.
"The church … had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

readselerttoo

  • Guest
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2014, 12:23:08 AM »
I think I've answered this question, but here goes again.  A person who is baptized and yet rejects God was never saved in the first place.  Baptism is only efficacious for the elect.


I'm more inclined to think that baptism is a sign that we are among the elect. The Jews are God's Chosen people because God said so - and remained so even though the rejected God over and over again throughout their history. They remained God's people, even when God was disciplining them for their misbehaviors and idolatry.


What do you say of Peter who rejected Jesus? Or the other ten who abandoned him? They did not cease being "The Twelve". Only death ended Jesus choice/election of these apostles.




"It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."  from Romans 9.  According to a Jew, not all of God's people are God's people.  Israel's history indicates that only a remnant would carry on as God's chosen.

Team Hesse

  • Guest
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2014, 07:24:47 AM »

It's also a perspective that looks at Judaism not through the lens of Luther and Paul. It is a perspective that the Jews have about their own faith, rather than one that we think that they should have.


The important perspective here is not the Jewish perspective of their own faith but Jesus' perspective of the Jewish faith. If I'm not mistaken, he was offering correction of that perspective.


We probably do best to listen to Jesus and Paul.


Lou

JMK

  • Guest
Re: Unchurched Versus Dechurched
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2014, 02:16:48 PM »
Quote
A Jewish comment I heard and liked stated that the 613 laws biding on the Jews cannot be works-righteousness, because they are already God's covenant people. Obeying those laws is their witness to the rest of the world that they are God's people. Some Jews do very well at making such a witness in the world, others do very poorly. That doesn't change the fact that they are God's covenant people.


The baptized are God's children whether they act like it or not. - Brian Stoffregen

Thank you for sharing that story. It is interesting that, in the New Testament the word for sin (ἁμαρτία) is not all that different from the word for witness (μάρτυς).