Author Topic: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?  (Read 40469 times)

Dan Fienen

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #285 on: March 01, 2014, 11:29:37 AM »
As I recall from your posts, you have nothing good to say about America, suggest that even when America or Americans do something that could be considered good it is for selfish motives, and accuse anyone who would say something good about America of ignoring our history and the less than perfect realities of America.

That's not quite true, Pr. Fienen.  I just don't buy the myth of American exceptionalism.  America, just like every other nation, is populated by original sinners.  And, just like every other nation, our humanity shows in our collective behavior.  Just as we aren't any better than anyone else, we also aren't any worse, even though we have had more blessings to squander.

I have made no accusations about anyone saying something good about our country.  I have only challenged the denial of the sins of our history and I do so because our generation suffers from the consequences of those sins and, in fact, continues to commit many of them.

So America is no better than any other nation, and no worse.  Does that mean that America's treatment of its citizens is no better than how the government of Syria treats its citizens?  That America interaction with its neighbors is the same as how Russia treated Georgia and is interacting with Ukraine?

Dan
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Randy Bosch

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #286 on: March 01, 2014, 01:29:58 PM »
Does this all have nothing to do with either "religious freedom" or "America", but with a continuing new humanistic attempt to perfect all of humanity through definition and regulation of the action of the masses by the knowing elite? 

Was George Santayana correct when he wrote, now long ago,

“Liberalism had been supposed to advocate liberty; but what the advanced parties that still call themselves liberal now advocate is control, control over property, trade, wages, hours of work, meat and drink, amusements, and in a truly advanced country like France control over education and religion; and it is only on the subject of marriage . . . that liberalism is growing more and more liberal.”*

Or not...

*from the first chapter, “The Intellectual Temper of the Age”, in Santayana's 1913 collection of essays, "Winds of Doctrine", available for free reading on Project Gutenberg

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Thought Experiement
« Reply #287 on: March 01, 2014, 03:26:20 PM »

Show me the state regulation that says an agency may not provide the service without a state contract and I will happily concede the point.


Gee, if only the attorneys for Catholic Social Services had made a quick phone call to Helena, Montana, the agencies would still be doing adoptions and foster care in the state of Illinois.  No need to file lawsuits in several courts.  No need for my Senator -- who is many things and will never get my vote, but I know of no one who has ever questioned his honesty -- to propose corrective legislative to the consternation of most of his supporters.  Whoda thunk it.

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readselerttoo

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #288 on: March 01, 2014, 03:32:57 PM »
Does this all have nothing to do with either "religious freedom" or "America", but with a continuing new humanistic attempt to perfect all of humanity through definition and regulation of the action of the masses by the knowing elite? 

Was George Santayana correct when he wrote, now long ago,

“Liberalism had been supposed to advocate liberty; but what the advanced parties that still call themselves liberal now advocate is control, control over property, trade, wages, hours of work, meat and drink, amusements, and in a truly advanced country like France control over education and religion; and it is only on the subject of marriage . . . that liberalism is growing more and more liberal.”*

Or not...

*from the first chapter, “The Intellectual Temper of the Age”, in Santayana's 1913 collection of essays, "Winds of Doctrine", available for free reading on Project Gutenberg


To the bold phrase above:  I agree with this assessment.  Since the Reformation breakthrough by which justification of a person's quality before God does not occur except through God (who also is in Christ and there, is for others) rather than through a penitential system, the other side of this produces a danger in that one can also forget the Creator/Judge and simply only recognize one's quality based on the human court of judgment alone (coram hominibus).  The age of Enlightenment took judgment out of the hands of God and placed it before the public court of reason alone.  We see the fruits of this today in society which increasingly has become more secularized, using that term in the sense that this is God's arena as history fated with the operatives of nomological existence, evil also having its way as well.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 03:50:00 PM by readselerttoo »

John_Hannah

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #289 on: March 02, 2014, 09:08:21 AM »
Pr. JOHN HANNAH, STS

John Mundinger

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #290 on: March 02, 2014, 09:16:52 AM »
So America is no better than any other nation, and no worse.  Does that mean that America's treatment of its citizens is no better than how the government of Syria treats its citizens?

Pr. Fienen - that would be a fair question, except that our history contains examples of similar behaviors and some of our citizens are still living with the consequences of that behavior.

That America interaction with its neighbors is the same as how Russia treated Georgia and is interacting with Ukraine?

Vietnam?  Gulf War II?
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Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: Thought Experiement
« Reply #291 on: March 02, 2014, 09:26:57 AM »
Gee, if only the attorneys for Catholic Social Services had made a quick phone call to Helena, Montana, the agencies would still be doing adoptions and foster care in the state of Illinois.  No need to file lawsuits in several courts.

As I said, Pr. Tibbets, show me the regulation and I will concede the point.  Are those agencies out of business because they may not lawfully provide adoption services in Illinois?  Or, are they out of business because, absent state contracts, they would be in a serious negative cash flow?  And, what were the issues in dispute in the litigation - was it the terms of the contracts of licensing provisions?

Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

John Mundinger

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #292 on: March 02, 2014, 10:19:18 AM »
with regard to ED meds.  They exist to help people towards functiining as designed.  Contraceptives exist to stop bodies from functioning in a normal, healthy way. 

That argument is bogus, Matt, because declining sexual function with age is "functioning as designed".  And, when you think about it, it makes sense.  Children sired by older fathers are at greater risk for genetic problems.  Moreover, ED medications treat the symptom, not the underlying disorder and put the man at greater risk for heart disease.  Thus, I'd suggest that there is nothing "normal" or "healthy" about their use.
Lifelong Evangelical Lutheran layman

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought.  St. Augustine

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Matt Hummel

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #294 on: March 02, 2014, 02:58:29 PM »
with regard to ED meds.  They exist to help people towards functiining as designed.  Contraceptives exist to stop bodies from functioning in a normal, healthy way. 

That argument is bogus, Matt, because declining sexual function with age is "functioning as designed".  And, when you think about it, it makes sense.  Children sired by older fathers are at greater risk for genetic problems.  Moreover, ED medications treat the symptom, not the underlying disorder and put the man at greater risk for heart disease.  Thus, I'd suggest that there is nothing "normal" or "healthy" about their use.

So are you arguing from natural law in some way?  Because if that is the case, then you would have to disapprove of homosexual sex as going against the designed function.

Actually, if I am recalling the history correctly, the ED meds that are nitrites like Viagra, were discovered by accident.  They were working on heart meds, and it seemed to be doing the trick.  But in interviewing patients as to side effects, one seemed to stand out...

Are there side effects and dangers? Yes, as there are with any medication.  But I am back to the point that contraceptives act by disrupting something that was, until ingestion of the medication, working the way it was supposed to.  And the risks are far greater than those involved with ED meds. 

BTW- where do you draw the conclusion that reduction in sexual activity is functioning as designed? 
Matt Hummel


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Dave Benke

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #295 on: March 02, 2014, 07:06:27 PM »

Team Hesse

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #296 on: March 02, 2014, 07:22:24 PM »

Richard Johnson

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #297 on: March 02, 2014, 09:28:34 PM »
Yes, it was a very thought-provoking column. Thanks for posting the link, John; I was going to do so myself, but you beat me to it. (Well, you're three hours ahead of me . . . ;)).
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Harry Edmon

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carlvehse

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Re: Is Religious Freedom the Issue in Arizona?
« Reply #299 on: March 03, 2014, 01:36:43 AM »