Questions About 8 ELCA Seminaries

[Pilgrim]

John Wayne was 6' 4".

and...If Pastor Tim "Pilgrim" Christ is not 6' 4" then he should apologize to all the John Wayne fans across America.  To even imply that this film legend is short is not a classy move.

Tim simply comments: I said he was vertically challenged, not short. And having met him once, (and hearing him order what he called "a bloody beer", I simply call the question on the "hollywood statistics", in much the same fashion as people are currently questioning the physical stature of "Johnny Football" as the draft approaches. No offense to either the late JW nor his legions of fans intended, although apparently some folks can or will find fault with most anything.

[carlvehse]

a) it's you not saying "in my opinion," or "from my perspective," but "the question....is a reasonable one," which is self-congratulatory to your reasoning powers, no matter the underlying phrase.  I would say that's officious, but it seems to me more lawyerly.

No, it is just you being snarky.

b) If you want "proof" of the 2000ish churches and affordability of a fully-compensated pastor, do the homework. 

The burden of proof is on the person making such a claim of about 2,000 (out of 6,000) LCMS congregation that cannot afford to have a pastor.

[Charles_Austin]

I will ask the question again. Is a congregation of 10 to 50 people, existing barely with the help of a retired pastor, or an underpaid pastor with a spouse who has a good job, really a mission-oriented church? what if it would be very easy for these people to worship in another nearby church? How many congregations are we trying to maintain  for the sole purpose of nostalgia or for the selfish needs of a small group of people?
Harsh questions I know, but questions that must be asked.

[FrPeters]

The LCMS may not be much better off than the ELCA. I understand that there are now about 2,000 (out of 6,000) LCMS congregation that cannot afford to have a pastor.

I might believe that 2K LCMS parishes CHOOSE not to support a full-time pastor.  If you have 25 families, each tithing at an average per family income of $40K that is $100K for Pastor and other building expenses -- easily enough to share a Pastor; if you have 25 more families that is $200K for Pastor and building expenses... doable for a solo Pastor..

[Charles_Austin]

And when you get 25 families in a small congregation tithing enough to get $100,000+ plus into the parish, let me know. And 50 families tithing? Sure.

[Dave Likeness]

In our suburban LCMS parishes we are blessed
when about 50 percent of our families tithe.
Small rural parishes will not be saved by tithing.
If you  have less than 50 people in attendance,
that will not equal 25 strong and financially viable
families.  There is a reason they call them the
Smoky Mountains in TN.  We love Padre Peters.

[swbohler]

John Wayne was 6' 4".

and...If Pastor Tim "Pilgrim" Christ is not 6' 4" then he should apologize to all the John Wayne fans across America.  To even imply that this film legend is short is not a classy move.

Tim simply comments: I said he was vertically challenged, not short. And having met him once, (and hearing him order what he called "a bloody beer", I simply call the question on the "hollywood statistics", in much the same fashion as people are currently questioning the physical stature of "Johnny Football" as the draft approaches. No offense to either the late JW nor his legions of fans intended, although apparently some folks can or will find fault with most anything.

Not having met the man in person, I cannot speak to your experience.  All I can tell you is that he was always referred to as tall, he appeared to be tall compared to others in the movies and TV shows with him, and say what the "official" records tell us was his height.  How tall would you estimate he was? 

[Charles_Austin]

According to the Internet movie database, Marion Mitchell Morrison was 6'4" tall.

[LutherMan]

IMD is no more credible than Wikipedia...

[Eileen Smith]

I will ask the question again. Is a congregation of 10 to 50 people, existing barely with the help of a retired pastor, or an underpaid pastor with a spouse who has a good job, really a mission-oriented church? what if it would be very easy for these people to worship in another nearby church? How many congregations are we trying to maintain  for the sole purpose of nostalgia or for the selfish needs of a small group of people?
Harsh questions I know, but questions that must be asked.

It depends on the congregation - if a synod is assessing the viability of congregations within the synod, it does need to look at each one and not make a judgment based on numbers alone.  I know very small congregations in MNYS that are doing wonderful ministry - in the community and beyond.  I know large congregations that rest on their laurels.   It's not an affliction solely of small congregations that they hang onto a building, traditions, whatever due to nostalgia.

I knew a congregation - years ago - in upstate NY - part of the Atlantic District.  They had people and resources (financial).  There wasn't a whole lot of ministry going on.  (I would attend when we stayed with my in-laws.)  The neighborhood began to change, families moved away.  In time they were small and struggling.  They called a great pastor - and he led them into ministry.   I just checked them out on Facebook - church and school, two Christmas Eve services - one in Urdo.  Borrowing from ELCA/MNYS lingo - it looks like they re-rooted in their community.  And I can see they still have the same great pastor. 

[Dave Benke]

b) If you want "proof" of the 2000ish churches and affordability of a fully-compensated pastor, do the homework.  Go to LCMS.org, and hit each congregation and check out their giving/income/expenditure for last year and average in $75000 all in all done for a very middleish compensation including housing, salary, health, car, pension, and conference dues.  Report in when finished. 

Dave Benke

That raises the further question about how badly a congregation wants to be a fully functioning church. I raise the same question about churches that "cannot afford" to prepare the necessary ministers for their people. (Or, for that matter, countries that "cannot afford" to see to it that all their inhabitants, including the most helpless, have what they need to sustain life--food, shelter, health care.)

"Cannot afford" is usually asserted in tacit contrast to other things we would rather spend our money on. And we should not forget that there is a place also for pastors who, at personal financial sacrifice, devote their lives to the poor. Missions aren't only for distant lands. There are generous couples, and generous celibates for the kingdom of God, in our churches here in the U.S.

Peace,
Michael

Absolutely.  In the Lutheran, and I'll specify Missouri Synod Lutheran, way of thinking, as long as the pastor is proclaiming the Gospel and administering the Sacraments then the Means of Grace are available.  If the group hearing the Gospel and receiving the Sacrament is 7, then there's the thought that they are remaining faithful and should remain in that sanctuary.  They should indeed receive the Means of Grace.  But some to many insist that they remain in a sanctuary that seats 350 when there are only five of them left.  I visited one of those last week, an ELCA building.  Amazingly sad.

And the mission to the poor is extraordinarily important and should be given major priority by church leadership in giving dedicated workers opportunity to serve.

Dave Benke

[Richard Johnson]

The ELCA Study of Theological Education,

That one doesn't seem to work anymore.

I was able to access it through the wayback machine. Go to wayback machine and look for http://archive.is/o/gpDiq/http://www.elca.org/~/media/Files/Growing%20in%20Faith/Education/Seminaries/Study%20of%20Theological%20Education.pdf

[Chuck]

The ELCA Study of Theological Education,

That one doesn't seem to work anymore.

I was able to access it through the wayback machine. Go to wayback machine and look for http://archive.is/o/gpDiq/http://www.elca.org/~/media/Files/Growing%20in%20Faith/Education/Seminaries/Study%20of%20Theological%20Education.pdf

Thanks!

[Charles_Austin]

Give it up, Craig. You don't believe anything that comes from outside your own circle. iMDB is credible.

[MaddogLutheran]

Give it up, Craig. You don't believe anything that comes from outside your own circle. iMDB is credible.

I see all your mirrors are still broken.