Author Topic: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest  (Read 27756 times)

James_Gale

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Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« on: June 17, 2007, 11:45:55 AM »
Here is an article from the Seattle Times regarding Ann Homes Redding, an Episcopal Priest who professes to be both a Christian and a Muslim:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html.

If the Episcopal Church continues to permit a professing Muslim to serve as a Priest, should the ELCA take some action?  If so, what?

Richard Johnson

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2007, 01:25:00 PM »

If the Episcopal Church continues to permit a professing Muslim to serve as a Priest, should the ELCA take some action? If so, what?

I suppose a case could be made that "better a professing Muslim than a professing goddess worshiper." Or at least no worse. Didn't TEC boot a priest who was involved in Druidry a few years back?
The Rev. Richard O. Johnson, STS

Eric_Swensson

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 09:15:42 AM »
Called him in, he repented, then he came out online a few weeks later as "Oak Wyse" or something and said that he had his fingers crossed when he was talking to his bishop.

Let me explain something. I do not think that I or many others are interested in "making TEC a whipping boy" as in the recent words of my good friend, Matt. The point is to examine what is going on and see if we can find theological explanations. Since we are talking about the church, we sure should be able to do that.

 Here is good reading, three recent offerings at Get Religion, the media and religion blog that Charles really, really hopes you don't start reading:

 http://www.getreligion.org/?s=druid+oak&submit.x=13&submit.y=16
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 09:28:53 AM by Eric_Swensson »

Gladfelteri

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 09:35:42 AM »
This TEC priest claims to be both Christian and Muslim, huh? That may fly in TEC, maybe even be applauded there, but were she to publically say that in say, Saudi Arabia, for instance, I wonder what the Muttawain (the Saudi Religious Police) would think - and do - about that . . . ??

I am starting to think that the differences between liberal revisionist Christianity and traditionalist orthodox Christianity are now so profound and deep-seated that there is no point to arguing with them any more; and perhaps the time has come to simply recognize them as a completely different "School" of non-orthodox Christianity, and go our own separate way; continue to catechetize our people as conservative, traditionalist orthodox Christians (and even cooperate with them in areas of mutual secular concerns as we would with those of other World religions,) but just leave them behind and not look back.

Kyrie eleison,
Irl
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 07:29:07 PM by Irl Gladfelter »

Dave_Poedel

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2007, 10:38:10 AM »
As the Get Religion site shows, the interview was originally published in the Olympia Diocese newspaper/official publication, which if not endorsing her theology at least it gives approval to it. I posted this a few weeks ago within another thread.

I agree with Irl on this one.  There seems to be no "line" that one must cross for TEC to say "too far".

MMH

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2007, 02:15:40 PM »
What will be interesting, and perhaps tragic, to see is the difference between how nasty hardcore reactionary traditionalist Anglicans treat this situation, and how their counterparts in Islam treat it.

Matt Hummel+

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2007, 04:03:57 PM »
I posted this a few weeks ago within another thread.

The discussion on that thread begins here.

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ptmccain

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2007, 10:42:43 AM »
I would appreciate understanding better how ELCA folks understand "Full Communion" with a church, like the Episcopalian Church and the UCC, which tolerates and even welcomes such wide deviations from the historic faith of the Christian Church.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 11:38:37 AM »
I would appreciate understanding better how ELCA folks understand "Full Communion" with a church, like the Episcopalian Church and the UCC, which tolerates and even welcomes such wide deviations from the historic faith of the Christian Church.
Simply stated, full communion means that both church bodies agree to allow clergy from the other body to preside at communion. (This doesn't mean that we have to let a clergy from the other church preside.)
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]

ptmccain

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2007, 11:50:30 AM »
Brian, is that really all it means? Doesn't it also mean that churches in full communion recognize that they, together, all share in the same confession of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith and recognize amongst themselves, and in each other, a faithful, true and genuine confession of that faith? Or is "full communion" only about sharing pastors?

Gladfelteri

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2007, 12:17:15 PM »
Brian, permission for clergy of one Church to preside at Communion and even serve in a parish of another Church may only require a "License to Officiate" or the equivalent granted by the Primate or other duly constituted authority (at least according to the Canons of all the Anglican Churches I know of including TEC - and in my Church, for that matter.) It does not necessarily have to involve Full Communion or anything close to that.

As I understand it, Full Communion means fully recognizing and sharing not only clergy, but having essentially a common faith, praxis, and supporting each other ministries to a degree stopping only just short of organic union. As I understand it, this is also true for most other Churches. This is how Anglicans - including TEC - look at it. I know what the position of the LCMS and WELS are concerning Pulpit and Altar Fellowship - it is quite different, and as far as "Licenses to Officiate" are concerned, "Homey don't play that" . . . . ! >:(

So, what is the difference between this understanding of "Full Communion" as TEC understands it, and "Pulpit and Altar Fellowship" as far as the ELCA is concerned? I thought I understood what P & E Fellowship meant to the ELCA - that it was essentially the same as Anglican "Full Communion with only some minor differences. But apparently I don't. So, under your intercommunion agreement with TEC, is TEC talking "apples," the ELCA talking "oranges," and each pretending the other understands things their way for the sake of "the arrangement?" Or was my prior understanding essentially correct?

If (as I presume) your understanding is that of the ELCA, and what I described above is how TEC understands things, was there even a "meeting of the minds" between TEC and the ELCA when CCM was negotiated and signed? If so, what was it? And if not, how can an agreement made when there is no "meeting of the minds" mean much of anything?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 02:15:10 PM by Irl Gladfelter »

Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2007, 03:09:19 PM »
Brian, is that really all it means? Doesn't it also mean that churches in full communion recognize that they, together, all share in the same confession of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic faith and recognize amongst themselves, and in each other, a faithful, true and genuine confession of that faith? Or is "full communion" only about sharing pastors?

Brian has, indeed, over-simplified matters.  Your longer description is what it meant in the Lutheran-Episcopal Dialogues, and which enabled the Interim Eucharistic Fellowship (c. 1983) and then the Concordat/CCM.  Similarly the Formula of Agreement with the the PC(USA), UCC, and RCA--though with (IMHO) considerable fudging in the supporting documents.  This wasn't stated as strongly in the agreement with the Moravians.  As for the United Methodists, with whom we in the ELCA have entered into Interim Eucharistic Fellowship, the few positive arguments in favor (alas, no one stood to oppose) seem to focus largely on warm fuzzies.  :-[

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Steven Tibbetts

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2007, 03:25:52 PM »
If (as I presume) your understanding is that of the ELCA, and what I described above is how TEC understands things, was there even a "meeting of the minds" between TEC and the ELCA when CCM was negotiated and signed? If so, what was it? And if not, how can an agreement made when there is no "meeting of the minds" mean much of anything?

I'll say the same thing I say over and over again -- read the Concordat and CCM.  The "meeting of the minds" you are seeking is amply spelled-out, drawing largely upon the International Lutheran-Anglican Niagara Statement.

Now, whether anyone beyond those formally involved in the Lutheran-Episcopal Dialogues actually bothered to read those sections of our agreement is rather hard to tell from the way the debate within the ELCA went.  And many of us Lutherans who actually spent some time with our Episcopal brethren with the agreements have found that the same words didn't always carry the same meanings in each other's context, so the "meeting of minds" may actually be somewhere between what you and I have each described.  (Of course, we find that state within our own church bodies on the Augustana and the rest of our confessions.)

Pax, Steven+
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Dave_Poedel

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 03:05:55 AM »
If (as I presume) your understanding is that of the ELCA, and what I described above is how TEC understands things, was there even a "meeting of the minds" between TEC and the ELCA when CCM was negotiated and signed?  If so, what was it?  And if not, how can an agreement made when there is no "meeting of the minds" mean much of anything?

I'll say the same thing I say over and over again -- read the Concordat and CCM.  The "meeting of the minds" you are seeking is amply spelled-out, drawing largely upon the International Lutheran-Anglican Niagara Statement.

Now, whether anyone beyond those formally involved in the Lutheran-Episcopal Dialogues actually bothered to read those sections of our agreement is rather hard to tell from the way the debate within the ELCA went.  And many of us Lutherans who actually spent some time with our Episcopal brethren with the agreements have found that the same words didn't always carry the same meanings in each other's context, so the "meeting of minds" may actually be somewhere between what you and I have each described.  (Of course, we find that state within our own church bodies on the Augustana and the rest of our confessions.)

Pax, Steven+

Steven, I think you are correct, and that this aspect of words carrying different meaning and usage was clearly spelled out in JDDJ between the LWF and Vatican.  When a Lutheran says....they mean; when Catholics say.....they mean.

I call it "diplomatic" rather than theological language and usage.  That's why there has been very little change between the average Roman and Lutheran parish.  It's not like someone said "we are one now, Pastor can you fill in for Father next Sunday?"

Talking with a dear friend who is an ELCA pastor in town, I asked how the ecumenical agreements affect ministry at the parish, he (who would classify himself as quite liberal and supportive of all of the agreements) told me that there is no effect.  He says he is so busy that he doesn't even know the pastors of the nearest UCC, PCUSA or TEC parish.

Your experience in your Synod is exceptional, from what I hear.

Brian Stoffregen

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Re: Ann Holmes Redding -- A Muslim and an Episcopal Priest
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 10:08:46 AM »
Brian has, indeed, over-simplified matters.
That's what I tried to do -- and state the practical aspect of the agreement. We do not need "full communion" agreements to work together in social agencies, e.g., food banks or study together in joint classes or meet together in ministerial associations. Practically speaking, "full communion" allows for the interchange of preachers and presiders. Theologically speaking there certainly are other aspects to "full communion" -- e.g., we agree that "they" rightly preach the gospel and administer the sacraments, thus the agreements fall under AC VII.
"The church had made us like ill-taught piano students; we play our songs, but we never really hear them, because our main concern is not to make music, but but to avoid some flub that will get us in dutch." [Robert Capon, _Between Noon and Three_, p. 148]